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Post by throbak on Feb 20, 2010 20:16:46 GMT -5
timex; it may not be factual on the benifits of food plots and habitat improvement buuuut FYI ill. and ohio alocate 10 to 1 the dollars Indiana. spends on the same type programs
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2010 20:41:12 GMT -5
Didn't know that, don't see many food plots where I hunt there.
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Post by greghopper on Feb 20, 2010 21:35:25 GMT -5
The fact is everything in our lives comes down to estimates and assumptions, like it or not. The IDNR has the proven several times over that they are gathering enough data year in and year out. The goal is to collect enough samples to get within an acceptable error rate. The fewer the samples the larger the percent error. The more the samples the smaller the percent error. Ideal is 100% sample but logistics prevent that so and based on your population size there are calculations to do that will tell you how many samples to collect to get a 1%, 5%, or 10% percent error or what ever you decide is acceptable. I don't know what IDNR has set for their goal but it is set to be the most accurate and that is within their budget and most realistic...I am sure Mr. Stewart would provide you with the details if you were really concerned. I spoken to Mr. Stewart and sorry to say I remain unimpressed as I can smell what politicians pile the most from a mile away! IMHO he is one of Mitch's boys first .Also In your opinion they have proven estimates . IMHO they have not proven anything as it pertains to the herd age matrix in a state wide setting by any stretch of the imagination, and they are simply just estimates for one day at a very local spot and incorrect when applied to whole seasons and a state wide pattern estimate . Look at IL. if you look at the top 3 or 4 buck producing counties there you would swear that state wide by "estimates " they were killing bucks older than 3.5 years old state wide by a very high percentage maybe as high as 75% but look at the whole state there they are luck to have a 50% 2.5 year old rate or higher . Numbers are easily made to mean what you want them too. And that is not an opinion that is a fact. Really....that's a very interesting view point!!!!! I don't think many other's see him that way Many/most view him as a "Breath of fresh air" or "new thoughts on the Horizon"......now that we moved from the Mitchell & Olson days
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Post by vectrix on Feb 20, 2010 22:18:32 GMT -5
ot Strait from Mr.Stewart today . Man I think you need to read the whole deer reasults especially the part about out of state license sales increaseing over the last 3 years . Also why would he lie about the lease thing??? A person would either need to live in a box or are just centered on an argument to denie it or not know about the out of state and in staters leasing increase hurting locals and drawing in deer with huge habbitat improvements . Lets face it if you payed 500 or 1000 dollers a man to lease land you would not just go out and shoot every doe out there they will hold for a buck .That is why they leased it from out of state. First off, NR's aren't the only hunters leasing land in Ind. That's easily proved if you doubt it. Second, not all NR's lease land. Third, most people now days know and understand the importance in shooting does. Last, if Mr. Stewart wants any hunter to shoot more does, then he needs to make it more financially possible. Some people and NR's will be more than happy to shoot them, but not for what it costs ($150) when they can do it for $10 or so at home. Also, it's not factual that food plots and habitat improvement will increase the number of deer on an area, they may make them easier to see and make them healthier, but it doesn't make them have sex more often. I'm sure Mr. Stewart knows this well. Timex, I really don't have a dog in this fight but where is the $150 coming from? Last time I checked a deer tag here is $24 which in my mind is well worth the money. There's alot of hunters complaining on Indiana's "expensive" tags while posting on their $1,000 computers, shooting Mathews and driving their nice trucks. I do agree with most of what you say but I get tired of reading the same old song and dance on how much tags cost. I typically purchase 4 - 5 tags a season plus turkey- hunting/fishing and my sons tags and don't bat an eye. One thing I've learned from many years as a public servant " Give people a reason to complain and they will"
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Post by vectrix on Feb 20, 2010 22:27:54 GMT -5
Coorection for Timex, didn't realize you were a non-resident, my apologies. I do not agree though that $150 is too much for a NR to come hunt here as I do not believe that $24 is too much for a resident.
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Post by deerman1 on Feb 20, 2010 22:45:24 GMT -5
ot Strait from Mr.Stewart today . Man I think you need to read the whole deer reasults especially the part about out of state license sales increaseing over the last 3 years . Also why would he lie about the lease thing??? A person would either need to live in a box or are just centered on an argument to denie it or not know about the out of state and in staters leasing increase hurting locals and drawing in deer with huge habbitat improvements . Lets face it if you payed 500 or 1000 dollers a man to lease land you would not just go out and shoot every doe out there they will hold for a buck .That is why they leased it from out of state. First off, NR's aren't the only hunters leasing land in Ind. That's easily proved if you doubt it. Second, not all NR's lease land. Third, most people now days know and understand the importance in shooting does. Last, if Mr. Stewart wants any hunter to shoot more does, then he needs to make it more financially possible. Some people and NR's will be more than happy to shoot them, but not for what it costs ($150) when they can do it for $10 or so at home. Also, it's not factual that food plots and habitat improvement will increase the number of deer on an area, they may make them easier to see and make them healthier, but it doesn't make them have sex more often. I'm sure Mr. Stewart knows this well. You have obviously never seen what kind of drawing and staying power that a few good 5,10 ,or 15 acre food plot can do .I have 3 on my place rangeing from 1 to 10 acres and also two 25 acre clover and alfalfa feilds that is more food plot than hay. One food plot is a mix of corn and beans that still feeds them , and it draws most of the deer to our place from a mile or more away . And it does it at the right time .When the harvest of crops and hunting pressure mounts . I have also improved the habitat with cover plantings and selective timbering as many many do . So in fact you really missed the boat on this one IMO. My farm is currently holding between 40 and 70 deer every day with a high this season at one time of 82 ,and has since early october and the surrounding properties are sparse when it comes to deer at exactly the right time of year and the hunters around it do not fair well by mid Oct or later.. So in fact this is exactly what the man was talking about. And in turn my fawn mortality is very very light due to the great condition the deer herd is in so in fact my place and the maybe thousands like it in this state. They are deer factories that in reality few hunters participate in the bounty from. This synario where hunters do not shoot enough does deer and leaseing was his concern.
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Post by deerman1 on Feb 20, 2010 22:53:27 GMT -5
I spoken to Mr. Stewart and sorry to say I remain unimpressed as I can smell what politicians pile the most from a mile away! IMHO he is one of Mitch's boys first .Also In your opinion they have proven estimates . IMHO they have not proven anything as it pertains to the herd age matrix in a state wide setting by any stretch of the imagination, and they are simply just estimates for one day at a very local spot and incorrect when applied to whole seasons and a state wide pattern estimate . Look at IL. if you look at the top 3 or 4 buck producing counties there you would swear that state wide by "estimates " they were killing bucks older than 3.5 years old state wide by a very high percentage maybe as high as 75% but look at the whole state there they are luck to have a 50% 2.5 year old rate or higher . Numbers are easily made to mean what you want them too. And that is not an opinion that is a fact. Really....that's a very interesting view point!!!!! I don't think many other's see him that way Many/most view him as a "Breath of fresh air" or "new thoughts on the Horizon"......now that we moved from the Mitchell & Olson days As nice a person and well spoken he is { by the way he is very educated and also a pleasure to speak with on a n intellectual basis} his job however is politically driven and his boss could let him go for straying from the departmental or party line .That is politics and he has to be careful with his wording and fallowing the policies set forth by his bosses. I do believe he if left to his rathers would make the right choices after more discussion with him but alas it is decided after his findings and recommendations are turned in by people that have no business involved in the process " Power hungry politicos". That is also real world facts .So its all taken with several grains of salt from me indeed. And now I will bow out of this conversation on this topic for the sake of others who wish to debate these subjects for now as I have said what I know and was told first hand,and I have spoken my real world personal findings and results of habitat manipulation for wildlife.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2010 8:53:25 GMT -5
[ Timex, I really don't have a dog in this fight but where is the $150 coming from? Last time I checked a deer tag here is $24 which in my mind is well worth the money. There's alot of hunters complaining on Indiana's "expensive" tags while posting on their $1,000 computers, shooting Mathews and driving their nice trucks. I do agree with most of what you say but I get tired of reading the same old song and dance on how much tags cost. I typically purchase 4 - 5 tags a season plus turkey- hunting/fishing and my sons tags and don't bat an eye. One thing I've learned from many years as a public servant " Give people a reason to complain and they will" I agree.....most people would pay $24 for a doe tag and be happy to use it......but it costs NR hunters $150 for the first doe tag, then they let you buy more at the $24 price. Most won't do it, especially when I can do it at home for 2/$15. You also have to consider the cost of the first deer tag for the buck, which is also $150....so that's a buck and a doe for $300 AND that it's only good for one weapon on the buck......if we want to hunt all three seasons it's another $150 each time.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2010 8:58:25 GMT -5
[] My farm is currently holding between 40 and 70 deer every day with a high this season at one time of 82 ,and has since early october and the surrounding properties . I can't argue with a guy that knows as much as you about deer on his property....dang you are good! ARE you sure that at one time you didn't have 83 of them slipping around there? ;D ;D
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Post by johnnyantler on Feb 21, 2010 11:41:49 GMT -5
I spoken to Mr. Stewart and sorry to say I remain unimpressed as I can smell what politicians pile the most from a mile away! IMHO he is one of Mitch's boys first .Also In your opinion they have proven estimates . IMHO they have not proven anything as it pertains to the herd age matrix in a state wide setting by any stretch of the imagination, and they are simply just estimates for one day at a very local spot and incorrect when applied to whole seasons and a state wide pattern estimate . Look at IL. if you look at the top 3 or 4 buck producing counties there you would swear that state wide by "estimates " they were killing bucks older than 3.5 years old state wide by a very high percentage maybe as high as 75% but look at the whole state there they are luck to have a 50% 2.5 year old rate or higher . Numbers are easily made to mean what you want them too. And that is not an opinion that is a fact. Really....that's a very interesting view point!!!!! I don't think many other's see him that way Many/most view him as a "Breath of fresh air" or "new thoughts on the Horizon"......now that we moved from the Mitchell & Olson days I don't disagree but thanks for remembering me. ;D
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Post by Woody Williams on Feb 21, 2010 12:15:53 GMT -5
First off, NR's aren't the only hunters leasing land in Ind. That's easily proved if you doubt it. Second, not all NR's lease land. Third, most people now days know and understand the importance in shooting does. Last, if Mr. Stewart wants any hunter to shoot more does, then he needs to make it more financially possible. Some people and NR's will be more than happy to shoot them, but not for what it costs ($150) when they can do it for $10 or so at home. Also, it's not factual that food plots and habitat improvement will increase the number of deer on an area, they may make them easier to see and make them healthier, but it doesn't make them have sex more often. I'm sure Mr. Stewart knows this well. You have obviously never seen what kind of drawing and staying power that a few good 5,10 ,or 15 acre food plot can do .I have 3 on my place rangeing from 1 to 10 acres and also two 25 acre clover and alfalfa feilds that is more food plot than hay. One food plot is a mix of corn and beans that still feeds them , and it draws most of the deer to our place from a mile or more away . And it does it at the right time .When the harvest of crops and hunting pressure mounts . I have also improved the habitat with cover plantings and selective timbering as many many do . So in fact you really missed the boat on this one IMO. My farm is currently holding between 40 and 70 deer every day with a high this season at one time of 82 ,and has since early october and the surrounding properties are sparse when it comes to deer at exactly the right time of year and the hunters around it do not fair well by mid Oct or later.. So in fact this is exactly what the man was talking about. And in turn my fawn mortality is very very light due to the great condition the deer herd is in so in fact my place and the maybe thousands like it in this state. They are deer factories that in reality few hunters participate in the bounty from. This synario where hunters do not shoot enough does deer and leaseing was his concern. Just curious - How do get such an accurate count on the deer on your place?
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Post by huxbux on Feb 21, 2010 13:19:02 GMT -5
I'm very curious also.
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Post by Decatur on Feb 21, 2010 14:51:32 GMT -5
Unless they have tracking devices on every deer within 20 miles, I'd say it's impossible!
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Post by throbak on Feb 21, 2010 15:16:24 GMT -5
I,m curious also how many acres do you own to have that many deer? and if I was mr .stewart next year I would throw the FACTS out the window and open a forum and let the armchair biologist and the special intreast groups have at it you know sometimes the truth hurts but ITS STILL THE TRUTH
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Post by deerman1 on Feb 21, 2010 16:32:25 GMT -5
You have obviously never seen what kind of drawing and staying power that a few good 5,10 ,or 15 acre food plot can do .I have 3 on my place ranging from 1 to 10 acres and also two 25 acre clover and alfalfa Fields that is more food plot than hay. One food plot is a mix of corn and beans that still feeds them , and it draws most of the deer to our place from a mile or more away . And it does it at the right time .When the harvest of crops and hunting pressure mounts . I have also improved the habitat with cover plantings and selective timbering as many many do . So in fact you really missed the boat on this one IMO. My farm is currently holding between 40 and 70 deer every day with a high this season at one time of 82 ,and has since early October and the surrounding properties are sparse when it comes to deer at exactly the right time of year and the hunters around it do not fair well by mid Oct or later.. So in fact this is exactly what the man was talking about. And in turn my fawn mortality is very very light due to the great condition the deer herd is in so in fact my place and the maybe thousands like it in this state. They are deer factories that in reality few hunters participate in the bounty from. This scenario where hunters do not shoot enough does deer and leasing was his concern. Just curious - How do get such an accurate count on the deer on your place? The simple fact is it our farm is 100 acres and I have a good spotting scope with binoculars as do my two boys and hunting partner and his two sons do. The lay of the land allows my sons ,myself ,and partners to view all the feeding areas at once from long distance at the farms I / we own . It pays to work together for good numbers and a real understanding of the animals we have available here . Also remember this I do not live in the huge timber areas of southern Indiana it is all broken wood lots and creek lines where a 100 acre woods is very rare. It is mostly flat farm ground with broken wood lots and one large creek bottom and two small ones in the whole county . I live at the confluence of two of them . I have lived here for almost 50 years on the same land. Once we see the deer in the late afternoon doing their feeding routine we get in the trucks and drive around the few miles that surround our farm . We also have several cameras that we down load the date off of as well as non camera trail monitors stationed throughout the property as well . Then it is a simple matter of putting the times that the animals in the fields and food plots with the trail monitors and camera times and dates . Also early morning outing provide the usual but remarkably close same sitings and results as well.The fact our farms are 1 mile apart we work together. Between the 6 of us we own almost 4 acres It makes a difference when you life where you hunt and set your land up for hunting . It also helps that the deer here in this area will let you walk or drive within 50 yards or less without spooking . The pressure on our land is minimal as we do not start hunting here until the last week of October about mid week. We will not hunt the home farm or go to the 50 or so acre woods after the 1st of Sept and only watch from a distance starting mid Oct. It is not as complicated as you might think to get very accurate readings and numbers like this especially when 80% of the land for miles around you are crop fields. And you make an concerted effort to get out 4 to 5 times a week in the winter and prior to our hunting the home farm and track the numbers and see the animals that we have. We also have a farm about 70 miles north of us that we just hunt for fun in early Oct. and only run a few trail cams on . It is over run with deer and we will on a normal year take anywhere from 6 to 10 antlerless deer from it and will take a big buck if the occasion arises . But that is just for fun and to keep us busy . This year we did not make it up there due to other obligatins and job related issues . You do not have to beleive what I say it makes no differance to me as my success and that of my friends and family will not be changed , but we / I have a very good idea of what is here on our land as it is our home not just some place we go to hunt. Yesterday the same 24 doe ,doe fawns and button bucks were standing where they are almost every day feeding on corn that was ran down by the combind and in the hay feild when we left for the Deer classic at 7:50 AM. You need to drive around the mid north part of the state and see how it differs from the southern part it is not very simular other than its Indiana. Our area is much like the farm ground in Iowa that Lee and Tiff hunt.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2010 17:28:03 GMT -5
[ The simple fact is it our farm is 100 acres............... Between the 6 of us we own almost 4 acres . 82 deer on 100 acres equates to 524 deer per sq. mile.....I don't even want to try and figure out if the 4 acres had 82 deer ;D
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Post by deerman1 on Feb 21, 2010 17:41:02 GMT -5
[ The simple fact is it our farm is 100 acres............... Between the 6 of us we own almost 4 acres . 82 deer on 100 acres equates to 524 deer per sq. mile.....I don't even want to try and figure out if the 4 acres had 82 deer ;D Well not quite !! For example the 1. 5 Sq mile block of land south west of me has about 25 acres of wooded cover and any given day maybe 3 or 4 deer staying there it is all corn and beans stubble with 4 fence lines and about 3 dozen homes on it . Th block due west of me is much like that one with even less woods and a few more homes.. It is deceiving to here that many deer as an number on one farm but when you look at land that has cover for deer and that land that does not it becomes clear as to how it is so easily done to keep track of the deer here on our farms . The only real cover is the large creek bottom that is 1 mile north of me that is where the deer numbers are highest in the summer but it overrun with hunters and has homes the whole distance of it on the top of th creek bottom that is mostly farm Fields. So in fact I would guess that if our county was broken down deer per Sq mile it would likely only be 5 or 10 per Sq mile if averaged over the entire county that is vast crop feilds or urban and city sprawl. But with the decided lack of cover in the form of large woods it becomes clear that they stack up where the best cover and feed is when the crops start to fall .In the summer they disperse to the vast crop fields and very very small wood lots away from the creek bottoms.
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Post by racktracker on Feb 21, 2010 18:51:08 GMT -5
I spoken to Mr. Stewart and sorry to say I remain unimpressed as I can smell what politicians pile the most from a mile away! IMHO he is one of Mitch's boys first .Also In your opinion they have proven estimates . IMHO they have not proven anything as it pertains to the herd age matrix in a state wide setting by any stretch of the imagination, and they are simply just estimates for one day at a very local spot and incorrect when applied to whole seasons and a state wide pattern estimate . Look at IL. if you look at the top 3 or 4 buck producing counties there you would swear that state wide by "estimates " they were killing bucks older than 3.5 years old state wide by a very high percentage maybe as high as 75% but look at the whole state there they are luck to have a 50% 2.5 year old rate or higher . Numbers are easily made to mean what you want them too. And that is not an opinion that is a fact. Really....that's a very interesting view point!!!!! I don't think many other's see him that way Many/most view him as a "Breath of fresh air" or "new thoughts on the Horizon"......now that we moved from the Mitchell & Olson days Well, is that not pizz poor gratitude for you? Dr. Mitchell and John Olson managed the deer herd from almost nothing to where it is is today. I don't think you are old enough to have bene around when just seeing a deer was something. Now if a hunter doesn't see a dozen every time he goes out he whines. Show a little respect for the men that was able to grow this herd to a point where anyone can kill a deer.
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Post by Woody Williams on Feb 21, 2010 19:02:15 GMT -5
Really....that's a very interesting view point!!!!! I don't think many other's see him that way Many/most view him as a "Breath of fresh air" or "new thoughts on the Horizon"......now that we moved from the Mitchell & Olson days Well, is that not pizz poor gratitude for you?
Dr. Mitchell and John Olson managed the deer herd from almost nothing to where it is is today. I don't think you are old enough to have bene around when just seeing a deer was something.
Now if a hunter doesn't see a dozen every time he goes out he whines. Show a little respect for the men that was able to grow this herd to a point where anyone can kill a deer. I agree 110%!! See a lot of deer while hunting? Thank Jim and John....
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2010 20:58:52 GMT -5
82 deer on 100 acres equates to 524 deer per sq. mile.....I don't even want to try and figure out if the 4 acres had 82 deer ;D Well not quite !! For example the 1. 5 Sq mile block of land south west of me has about 25 acres of wooded cover and any given day maybe 3 or 4 deer staying there it is all corn and beans stubble with 4 fence lines and about 3 dozen homes on it . Th block due west of me is much like that one with even less woods and a few more homes.. It is deceiving to here that many deer as an number on one farm but when you look at land that has cover for deer and that land that does not it becomes clear as to how it is so easily done to keep track of the deer here on our farms . The only real cover is the large creek bottom that is 1 mile north of me that is where the deer numbers are highest in the summer but it overrun with hunters and has homes the whole distance of it on the top of th creek bottom that is mostly farm Fields. So in fact I would guess that if our county was broken down deer per Sq mile it would likely only be 5 or 10 per Sq mile if averaged over the entire county that is vast crop feilds or urban and city sprawl. But with the decided lack of cover in the form of large woods it becomes clear that they stack up where the best cover and feed is when the crops start to fall .In the summer they disperse to the vast crop fields and very very small wood lots away from the creek bottoms. Deerman, I was born during the day but it wasn't yesterday. If you in fact had 82 deet on 100 acres, you would have a serious browse line in your woods. As you know, even with large field of corn and beans, a deer daily intake is still 60% browse. No matter what you post about your deer, your neighbors have some also even without wooded cover. Deer don't have to have until the crops are harvested. Corn and high beans make excellent bedding and large fild make a secure place to lay up, even when slick from the harvest.
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