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Post by Woody Williams on Feb 23, 2011 14:32:14 GMT -5
Swilk,
How is a lease "made" ? Is it black and white legal document?
I don't think anyone does the old handshake agreements any more do you?
I do not think any CO will just take a person's word for it that they lease the tree farming rights, do you? If they did no one would ever have to buy another license the rest of their lives."
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2011 14:38:36 GMT -5
This is pretty simple. Either they file a farm income or loss tax return or they don't. If they don't, they aren't farming. They are farming the timber ... watching it grow.
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Post by racktracker on Feb 23, 2011 14:40:44 GMT -5
Holey Moley Swilk, give it up.
It is in black and white who can and who cant hunt without a tag. You can play symantic games of "watching the trees grow" all day long but I can tell you a fact that if a game warden wants to see proof that a person's exemption, they had better have it or cough it up pretty quick.He can ticket them and then they can bring their proof to court. Their choice.
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Post by swilk on Feb 23, 2011 14:42:12 GMT -5
Swilk, How is a lease "made" ? Is it black and white legal document? I don't think anyone does the old handshake agreements any more do you? I do not think any CO will just take a person's word for it that they lease the tree farming rights, do you? If they did no one would ever have to buy another license the rest of their lives." Absolutely it is a legal document. No definite template between lessor and lessee .... could be as simple as "I lease to you all uses of the property agricultural and otherwise" Not saying what could be done would be above the table or even right or wrong. Just saying the wording of the law leaves loopholes for those who might wish to exploit them.
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Post by swilk on Feb 23, 2011 14:43:49 GMT -5
This is pretty simple. Either they file a farm income or loss tax return or they don't. If they don't, they aren't farming. They are farming the timber ... watching it grow. Wouldnt be hard to come up with.
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Post by swilk on Feb 23, 2011 14:46:17 GMT -5
Holey Moley Swilk, give it up. It is in black and white who can and who cant hunt without a tag. You can play symantic games of "watching the trees grow" all day long but I can tell you a fact that if a game warden wants to see proof that a person's exemption, they had better have it or cough it up pretty quick.He can ticket them and then they can bring their proof to court. Their choice. Isnt black and white unless you assume all folks are honest. I know what the law says and as I have said in past posts I agree with Woody on how he interprets it. All I am saying is the wording leaves gray areas less than honest people could easily exploit. Good grief .... if all laws were perfectly black and white we would have no use for a courts system and there would never be a surprise in rulings.
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Post by swilk on Feb 23, 2011 14:53:08 GMT -5
Timex - I planted several thousand trees last year and many times that were planted in the years before I bought the farm. Oaks. Ash. Lots of other hardwoods.
I will someday harvest that timber.
Do I need to file a tax return this year for that future harvest?
Hypothetical .... if a person leases a piece of property and they go in and plant several trees on it that will be harvested in 50 years by someone is that lessor not participating in timber agriculture?
Nobody is going to convince me that this is black and white so we may as well call it a day. I know at least someone in the DNR agrees with me too.
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Post by racktracker on Feb 23, 2011 14:58:21 GMT -5
Holey Moley Swilk, give it up. It is in black and white who can and who cant hunt without a tag. You can play symantic games of "watching the trees grow" all day long but I can tell you a fact that if a game warden wants to see proof that a person's exemption, they had better have it or cough it up pretty quick.He can ticket them and then they can bring their proof to court. Their choice. Isnt black and white unless you assume all folks are honest. I know what the law says and as I have said in past posts I agree with Woody on how he interprets it. All I am saying is the wording leaves gray areas less than honest people could easily exploit. Good grief .... if all laws were perfectly black and white we would have no use for a courts system and there would never be a surprise in rulings. All I am saying is that if a game warden wants to see proof that a person's exemption, they had better have it or cough it up pretty quick. A "I shook haqnds with Farmer Brown" wont cut it. He can ticket them and then they can bring their proof to court. Their choice. Don't believe it? Try a CO on for size on that one.
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Post by swilk on Feb 23, 2011 14:59:58 GMT -5
Isnt black and white unless you assume all folks are honest. I know what the law says and as I have said in past posts I agree with Woody on how he interprets it. All I am saying is the wording leaves gray areas less than honest people could easily exploit. Good grief .... if all laws were perfectly black and white we would have no use for a courts system and there would never be a surprise in rulings. All I am saying is that if a game warden wants to see proof that a person's exemption, they had better have it or cough it up pretty quick. A "I shook haqnds with Farmer Brown" wont cut it. He can ticket them and then they can bring their proof to court. Their choice. Don't believe it? Try a CO on for size on that one. Dont disagree one bit. If a lease was draw up in a way to make it look like the lessor was leasing all uses of the property including timber it would possibly stand up if challenged.
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Post by swilk on Feb 23, 2011 15:02:54 GMT -5
Including lessees in the law .... and including "agricultural" definitions that include livestock and timber ..... leaves areas that could be exploited.
Lease a huge piece of ground and stick a couple cows on it.
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Post by drs on Feb 23, 2011 15:06:09 GMT -5
All in All, it's much easier to own AND LIVE on your property you intend to hunt on.
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Post by swilk on Feb 23, 2011 15:11:04 GMT -5
If they would just have land "owner" tags that would help. Including lessees muddys the water.
IMO if it were just owners they could remove any of the other caveats. I feel if you own the property you can do whatever you want to do with it including hunting without paying a state license fee.
Does a person have to have a fishing license to fish in a lake they own? I dont think they do ......
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Post by Decatur on Feb 23, 2011 15:42:12 GMT -5
All in All, it's much easier to own AND LIVE on your property you intend to hunt on. Easy for you to say!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2011 18:51:03 GMT -5
Timex - I planted several thousand trees last year and many times that were planted in the years before I bought the farm. Oaks. Ash. Lots of other hardwoods. I will someday harvest that timber. Do I need to file a tax return this year for that future harvest? Hypothetical .... if a person leases a piece of property and they go in and plant several trees on it that will be harvested in 50 years by someone is that lessor not participating in timber agriculture? Nobody is going to convince me that this is black and white so we may as well call it a day. I know at least someone in the DNR agrees with me too. You need a farm number from USDA, and yes you need to show farm income or loss on your taxes if you claiming to be a tree farmer. Tree farming is a ongoing process, involves planting, thinning and timber harvest at some point. A letter or what ever you have from the DNR is a worthless piece of paper when and if the CO decides to enforce the law as written. IMO, planting trees to hunt off of is the same as planting food plots. I don't believe it makes your place a tree farm?
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Post by swilk on Feb 23, 2011 19:43:02 GMT -5
Im just talking in hypotheticals here .... the law didnt say tree farm it just said timber. Just throwing ideas out there.
I would assume firewood would fall under the timber thing too. lease property and cut up dead or fallen trees to sell as firewood and hunt license free.
Or like I said .... lease a big chunk and stick a cow or two on it.
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Post by tomthreetoes on Feb 24, 2011 9:29:56 GMT -5
Why keep stirring the pot? I bought it, paid for it, I pay taxes on it, and perform my own management practices. We're in the process of timber stand improvement, at the cost of several thousand dollars. I think hunting on my own place without a fee isn't too much to ask. If you think landowners have an unfair advantage buy your own. Sorry, this topic hit a nerve.
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Post by speckle on Feb 24, 2011 9:49:29 GMT -5
Swilk just tell us where they will be hunting this fall and we will send some Cos out and see what happens. I bet your buddys won't like the outcome
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Post by Woody Williams on Feb 24, 2011 9:55:22 GMT -5
Swilk just tell us where they will be hunting this fall and we will send some Cos out and see what happens. I bet your buddys won't like the outcome He has already said that the hunters on his place have the proper licensing.
Did you read my ATTENTION post? If not maybe you had better, OK?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2011 10:12:17 GMT -5
I think that swilk and his lessors could hunt without a license if they do a few things but that for now, they can't legally do so.
Is have the farm registered with the USDA and get a farm number, then start filing a Profit and Loss tax return on the timber business, then write a lease contract with the guys he has hunting with hum.
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Post by boonechaser on Feb 24, 2011 11:24:59 GMT -5
Kinda silly arguement. Code IC-14-22-11-1 is posted. READ IT. If you feel you are obeying the law don't buy a license. If you feel you arn't then buy a license. (Cheaper than a citation I would think.)
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