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Post by esshup on Mar 9, 2014 11:50:44 GMT -5
A buddy came over to the house this morning to shoot a little bit. He said that on his way out from Chicago, just East of Wanatah he saw 3 'yotes chasing a doe in a field. He pulled over to watch. He said that about the same time he got the truck stopped they caught the doe. Two were feeding on her while she was still struggling, and the 3rd was looking at his truck. He was at my place at 9:15 am CST. All he could do was watch. Too far away for a phone camera pic.
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Post by Boilermaker on Mar 10, 2014 15:58:06 GMT -5
That's a shame, tough to watch I'm sure. Headin out tonight to try and thin a few out!
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Post by esshup on Mar 10, 2014 23:58:21 GMT -5
He wasn't "bothered" by it, more like "I wish I had the gun in the truck and had permission to thin 'em out".
Good luck tonight!
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Post by drs on Mar 11, 2014 4:32:24 GMT -5
Here in Kentucky, Coyotes are shot year round. No season on them.
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Post by steve46511 on Mar 11, 2014 9:50:16 GMT -5
With land owner permission, we can take them year around too. (Odd rule IMO)
One of the concerns I had about this long, ugly winter was just how hungry the coyotes have to be and just exactly where they would concentrate their hunts.
I haven't said anything locally but have NOTICED that there is a BUNCH of "lost dog" posters and online posts. As limited as the coyote's normal fare is in a winter like this one, it makes me wonder.
Fawns numbers suffer badly up here going by the number of teeny hoofs found by dens come fawning time.
Need to get out before fawning time and lower their numbers a bit.
God Bless
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Post by M4Madness on Mar 28, 2014 16:54:02 GMT -5
I recently got written permission to hunt coyotes from a neighboring landowner who hasn't allowed any hunting in 20 years. He had gotten a good reference regarding me from another landowner that I hunt on and called me up after a deer had been killed by coyotes on his horse farm. Last night right before I went to bed, he called me again to tell me that another deer had been killed. The coyotes ran it into two tube gates wired together with enough force to bust the gates open, and slow the deer down enough to be tackled and killed. He is concerned that even if the coyotes do not attack his expensive show horses, they might certainly spook them enough to cause them to injure themselves. He offered to pay me $100 bounty per each coyote I kill on his property, but I refused the offer to take payment, telling him that sole hunting permission is payment enough.
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Post by Woody Williams on Mar 28, 2014 19:16:13 GMT -5
That's a good deal.
I caught some flack for stating that the increasing coyote population has had an impact in the deer herd. These ain't young fawns being killed this time of the year.
Good luck on them and post up your kills..
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Post by drs on Mar 29, 2014 4:53:09 GMT -5
My Brother "nailed" a Coyote last week with a .270, range was 200 yards.
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Post by throbak on Mar 29, 2014 7:45:58 GMT -5
I was at a work shop in Carrollton Ky last wk end one of the speakers was Stanley Gehrt he did the work on the special Coy Wolf some interesting facts 80% are less than 1 yr old,,,all are monogamous,will NOT exceed the carrying capacities,,,home range around 7 miles,,,diet 42% rodents,,Kill VERY FEW deer,,,less than 10% in studies in Canada,,,Fawn Diet on Average less than 10%,, increasing fawn survival has NO effect on OVERALL POPULATION,,,You want to help the deer enhance the Rodent population ,, removal has unintended consequences in a urban setting they were very effective in Canada goose control the do hurt grey fox and feral cats which they kill but dont eat ( competition for the Rodents) peak deer in scat.. October( archery seasons) and May, Fawns .after fawns are 18 days old no depredation by coyotes,, another interesting coyote fact if you kill alot of the resident population the ones left will have up to 12 pups to replace the ones killed .. left alone 3 or 4 remember they will not exceed the carrying capacities ,,It was a very interesting topic And I asked, he said,, Killing Coyotes will not help the deer population
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Post by M4Madness on Mar 29, 2014 8:31:31 GMT -5
Good luck on them and post up your kills.. It'll be a while yet. LOL! I suffered a level 3 ankle sprain at work on February 17, and six weeks later, my ankle is still swelled up. I'm walking with a very bad limp, and certainly cannot walk outdoors on uneven terrain. Physical therapy is helping somewhat. I was told by the workman's comp doctor yesterday that I may never have the ankle I had before, but I'm determined to get it back. If I'm not better in three weeks, they're going to schedule an MRI. I had just started to hunt this new property when I got injured. Killing Coyotes will not help the deer population Even if that were true (I disagree), killing coyotes still gives me great satisfaction. And if killing them creates even more, I'll have a target rich environment. LOL! |
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Post by Woody Williams on Mar 29, 2014 9:04:28 GMT -5
Good luck on them and post up your kills.. It'll be a while yet. LOL! I suffered a level 3 ankle sprain at work on February 17, and six weeks later, my ankle is still swelled up. I'm walking with a very bad limp, and certainly cannot walk outdoors on uneven terrain. Physical therapy is helping somewhat. I was told by the workman's comp doctor yesterday that I may never have the ankle I had before, but I'm determined to get it back. If I'm not better in three weeks, they're going to schedule an MRI. I had just started to hunt this new property when I got injured. MANY years ago I had a severe sprain two weeks before a scheduled elk and mule deer hunt in Colorado. I worked with an ex-race horse trainer and he told me to get some Absorbine, not the human stuff but the stuff for horses.
I did and it was miraculous stuff. It comes in a gel form now..www.absorbine.com/products/muscle-care/veterinary-liniment-gelKilling Coyotes will not help the deer population Even if that were true (I disagree), killing coyotes still gives me great satisfaction. And if killing them creates even more, I'll have a target rich environment. LOL! Yep...I've seen too many other coyote studies that said otherwise.WW
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Post by Woody Williams on Mar 29, 2014 9:12:49 GMT -5
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Post by esshup on Mar 29, 2014 18:57:40 GMT -5
I was at a work shop in Carrollton Ky last wk end one of the speakers was Stanley Gehrt he did the work on the special Coy Wolf some interesting facts 80% are less than 1 yr old,,,all are monogamous,will NOT exceed the carrying capacities,,,home range around 7 miles,,,diet 42% rodents,,Kill VERY FEW deer,,,less than 10% in studies in Canada,,,Fawn Diet on Average less than 10%,, increasing fawn survival has NO effect on OVERALL POPULATION,,,You want to help the deer enhance the Rodent population ,, removal has unintended consequences in a urban setting they were very effective in Canada goose control the do hurt grey fox and feral cats which they kill but dont eat ( competition for the Rodents) peak deer in scat.. October( archery seasons) and May, Fawns .after fawns are 18 days old no depredation by coyotes,, another interesting coyote fact if you kill alot of the resident population the ones left will have up to 12 pups to replace the ones killed .. left alone 3 or 4 remember they will not exceed the carrying capacities ,,It was a very interesting topic And I asked, he said,, Killing Coyotes will not help the deer population O.K. I'll believe that coy/wolf study that was done in Canada. I wonder if it was done in an ag area of Canada where the deer are abundant or in a wilderness mature forest area where the deer density is low? Still, I have a hard time believing that data applies to ag areas here in the States where there are no coy/wolf hybrids. |
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Post by throbak on Mar 29, 2014 21:45:00 GMT -5
The Urban stuff was done in Chicago, he is from Ohio state univ. and teaches there the studies he quoted from were from Ohio , Penn, Indiana ,and Illinois He said alot of the stuff on the show was not as he said especially the Genetic stuff on the Possible crosses
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Post by esshup on Mar 30, 2014 0:23:41 GMT -5
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Post by throbak on Mar 30, 2014 7:35:40 GMT -5
The coyote killing both articles talked about was just prior to Fawning and the studies were in the South all his studies were in Ill. Ohio and Indiana and what he stated was what was found in HIS studies, If coyotes are the problem thought why Record No. of Deer Harvest and populations at the same time as the coyote boom ?? and does more fawns mean more deer in the fall or more deer to be killed by other means (Mowing machines)ect. he said in I think S Carolina they were having 35% fawn depredation and all out war declared but they still have 900,000 deer and some of the most liberal seasons when the deer population goes down the prey will be shifted to more available species Coyotes are Opportunists
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Post by stevenlile001 on Apr 15, 2014 8:18:51 GMT -5
I don't know about deer but they seem to be hard on my pheasants and rabbits. I have 150 ac. of wrp and the folks next door have 120 ac. its great habitat but we have alot of trouble keeping birds around.
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Post by josephwrealty on May 6, 2014 21:45:18 GMT -5
Coyotes make a big dent in deer, turkey, rabbit, pheasant etc populations. They are opportunistic and adapt very well to there situation. Whether it's a doe or ankle biter if there hungry and opportunity exists for a kill they will do wars necessary. Best thing to do is to either hunt/trap them hard as possible yourself or contact a gentlemen such as myself who will do the job or bring in one of my fellow experienced predator hunter/trappers to take a bite out of Em.
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Post by moose1am on May 8, 2014 22:38:30 GMT -5
The carrying capacity depends on many factors. Food supply being just one of them. The main thing that keeps a coyote off your land is another coyote already on that land and defending it as his own. Other coyotes will be forced off that territory.
I don't see many people out hunting rats and mice or voles. Competition to catch and eat these creatures (mice and voles) comes more from mother nature than from man. IE hawk and owls and other predators help to control the rodent population and compete with the coyotes for this food source.
Farmers have many enemies and mice and voles along with things like Ground Hogs are enemies to the farmer. Why do you think that the farmer keeps so many barn cats around the place? They eat mice just like the coyotes. So both the house cat and the coyote can be a benefit to the grain farmer. But the cattle farmer probably would rather have the house cat around eating the mice than the coyote as the coyotes also kill the farmers young cows. The house cat is safer to have around. Unfortunately the coyotes kills the house cats too. So IMHO the coyote has to be shot or trapped and eliminated.
I'd love to see Stanley's research notes and documents. I have a feeling that coyotes kill a lot more deer fawns than he thinks. I learned that from my College Wildlife Biology Professor, who taught me and the current Director of IDNR's fish and wildlife agency. Professor Weeks stated that he observed rouge dog packs chasing deer and killing them way back before coyotes were a problem here in INDIANA. That was way back in 1975. I'd bet that he wrote about that somewhere in the literature. That's what PhD college professors do. They do tons of research along with their teaching duties.
I can easily see how a couple of coyotes or a pack of 4 or 5 yotes could kill a lot of deer fawns if given the chance. The only thing that deer fawn have in their favor is no scent to smell and they stay hidden with little movement. They naturally know to stay very still and let their natural camouflaged hair blend into the forest floor. The little white dots mimic spots of sunlight hitting the forest floor though the tree canopy. But, if they are discovered by the coyotes their only chance to survive is the mother protecting them from the pack of coyotes. And that's not going to go well for mother or fawn. IMHO. Even though the deer fawn don't have much scent they coyotes nose is excellent and their eye sight is great too. So they probably do find a lot of fawns. Especially since they know that the mother doe is always going to be near the fawns. Coyotes are pretty smart too.
You are right about one thing. When animal population plummet the number of follicles that develop in the females ovaries increase in number. That equates to more young born. This is caused by an increase in food supply and quality since there is less completion for brow than if there were more deer around. But, if the habitat is not there to support the increase in numbers of deer then most won't make it through the first few years of life. The web of life is delicate and complicated. Less food equals less deer. Less deer means more food will be available. Just like the lemming and the fox up North. The predator prey balance is a cycle. With the predator increase in population lagging behind the prey population increase in numbers. IE the prey population has to build up to big numbers before the predator population can do the same. Then as the prey population decreases and crashes so do the predator population. This cycles continues over and over again.
There are biological feedback mechanisms that help control the population of White tail deer. Increased numbers of deer leads to lower food supply and thus lower birth rates. This is what I learned in the Wildlife Biology class at Purdue back in 1975. Less food equals more stresss on the deer and poorer health which in turn lowers the number of eggs that the female deer produce. Thus less fawns are produced. Then there is less pressure on the deer's food supply and the browse recovers over time. As the food supply increases again the deer become healthier and then start to produce more eggs in the ovaries. The cycle is repeated again and again. Predator's help control the deer population and thus help protect the deer's food supply. This is going on in Yellow Stone National Park today. With the reintroduction of the wolf back into the park the population of browsing animal (Elk) are under pressure and the weak elk are being killed reducing the elk herd and also moving the elk to new territory. They want to stay away from the wolves. So the plants in the vicinity of the wolf pack's territory are growing back. Before they were being eaten by the Elk herd. Predators have a place in the balance of life. But hunters are also a PREDATOR. We men are the biggest Predator around.
Man has taken over the place of the other predators in a sense. We are the top dog now. We hunt the elk and rabbits and just about everything else for food and sport. We really don't need to have the coyotes around to do that job. But they are hear non the less. They are persistent little buggers.
Deer that have been harvested are studied and one can count the number of foilcals on the ovaries to determine how many eggs they produced . This can be compared to the food supply research in the territory.
Take for example the over crowded deer population at Harmony State Park. I personally observed the browse line up at the park years ago when the deer population was way over the carrying capacity of the park. Below a certain level that matched up with the height that he deer could reach the browse there was very little vegetation left. I could literally see the browse line and everything that the deer could eat below a certain height was gone. I could see for many yards though the lower parts of the brush or small trees that grew in the park. And deer were every where in that park. They were out in the open during the middle of the day. A lot of the deer were small in size too. They were starving to death. Which is why IDNR had open hunting seasons on these deer to help reduce the population and protect the plants that the deer were browsing on. They could have used a few more coyotes up that are that park.
There are some good books dealing with predator/prey population studies and how they affect each other over time.
I was at a work shop in Carrollton Ky last wk end one of the speakers was Stanley Gehrt he did the work on the special Coy Wolf some interesting facts 80% are less than 1 yr old,,,all are monogamous,will NOT exceed the carrying capacities,,,home range around 7 miles,,,diet 42% rodents,,Kill VERY FEW deer,,,less than 10% in studies in Canada,,,Fawn Diet on Average less than 10%,, increasing fawn survival has NO effect on OVERALL POPULATION,,,You want to help the deer enhance the Rodent population ,, removal has unintended consequences in a urban setting they were very effective in Canada goose control the do hurt grey fox and feral cats which they kill but dont eat ( competition for the Rodents) peak deer in scat.. October( archery seasons) and May, Fawns .after fawns are 18 days old no depredation by coyotes,, another interesting coyote fact if you kill alot of the resident population the ones left will have up to 12 pups to replace the ones killed .. left alone 3 or 4 remember they will not exceed the carrying capacities ,,It was a very interesting topic And I asked, he said,, Killing Coyotes will not help the deer population |
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Post by throbak on May 9, 2014 8:26:13 GMT -5
moose; On the fawns he placed something in the Does that was discharged when the fawn was born and it started transmitting I think he said 258 does were done they were collaring the fawns within 2 hrs after being born In Chicago 86% of fawns were lost on the scat studies it was stated the health of the deer eaten was not known could have been road kills or hunting related But I noted on the graphs shown deer as food spiked at the opening of archery season and didn't start declining till after deer season indicating to me Road kill and hunting related losses
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