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Post by deadeer on Mar 17, 2014 10:54:39 GMT -5
I agree that Indiana has made a mess out of the regs. We are a laughing stock on other websites as far as gun regs. Why make it more complicated. Any straightwall, or any centerfire 243 and up, or list only allowed cals, would be a big help and leave it at that, no exceptions to a list. Just stick with one thing and be done. I personnaly don't want gun season full of high powers where we hunt (NW). Way too many shotgunners emptying their guns now. People mention coyote, squirrel, and depredation hunters having no cal restrictions, but way more deer hunters than all those combined. I don't know...
Jay
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Post by esshup on Mar 17, 2014 11:03:07 GMT -5
The thing that I don't understand about the CF regs in Indiana is that the same calibers that are not legal in a rifle ARE legal in a pistol. So, the only difference (in my mind) is the willingness of the hunter to acquire another gun.
I've changed my Indiana firearms deer hunting weapons over the years. Started out with a smooth bore 12 ga shooting foster slugs. Switched to an Ithaca Deerslayer with sabots. When I couldn't get it to shoot accurately any more (for me) when Winchester bought BRI, I bought a .50 cal Savage Muzzleloader and started using IMR-4759 powder and 250g SST bullets. A .45 cal 250g bullet going 2300 fps was plenty, and I even took it to Wisconsin and hunted during the regular CF rifle season with it. I found it's limitations during some of the State Park hunts (no fast 2nd or 3rd shot) so I dropped back and bought a Tar-Hunt 12 ga. and used it for those types of hunts, and up north for hunting the really thick stuff where shots over 100 yds were very rare, or for when we did deer drives.
I haven't put in for the State Park hunts in a while, and my some of my hunting conditions have changed to where a longer shot than 150-200 yds is possible due to wind conditions and a different hunting property.
So, because of that, the other Savage ML-II that I acquired was converted to a .45 cal, shooting .40 cal Barnes bullets.
Now, with that muzzleloader, it is shooting that 195g Barnes bullet at 2840 fps, so a 300 yd shot is easily accomplished. (+2" at 100 yds, 0" at 200 yds, -10" at 300 yds - bc of .25). Even at 300 yds, it still has more than 1,000 fpe. Yes, I have to be more aware of the wind conditions, as wind drift is more of a concern than bullet drop.
So, while traditional CF rifles aren't legal now, the allowable weapons are no different ballistically so the "they have a longer range and what we have now is safer in more populated areas" theory just doesn't fly with this boy. What does make sense is that by not allowing the CF rifles, you are limiting the number of people that will have them, and more likely putting those allowable cartridges into the hands of people that might be more careful on what shots are taken.
Now, that brings up the richocet factor, which has been discussed before. Personally, I feel safer with a more fragile projectile going faster than a more robust projectile going slower. The former is much more likely to fragment into smaller pieces upon hitting something, and has less propensity to richocet than the larger heavier slower moving projectile.
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Post by swilk on Mar 17, 2014 11:14:43 GMT -5
Length and diameter of case designation has created a mess. The ONLY way to straighten it out so everyone can understand it is either go to straight wall ONLY or Full Monty center fires. Really? You think bigger than, longer than and shorter than is complicated? Meet 3 criteria and its legal seems pretty straightforward to me.
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Post by drs on Mar 17, 2014 11:34:06 GMT -5
Length and diameter of case designation has created a mess. The ONLY way to straighten it out so everyone can understand it is either go to straight wall ONLY or Full Monty center fires. I agree with your post, Woody. It is a real mess, as to what is legal or not due to case length. party
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Post by jjas on Mar 17, 2014 11:40:20 GMT -5
The calibers we have now are more than adequate for killing deer and I've used them with success. But....I would like to have more options than single shot rifles, lever guns and $700.00 bolt actions that the "pcrs" tend to be available in.
That's why I can understand why people would like additional options for deer hunting rifles like the .243, .270, etc. There are multiple options available in brands and price points for both the rifles and the ammo.
And the fact that the calibers are already legal for use in handguns has left many (myself included) wondering why rifles in these calibers weren't legal long ago.
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Post by swilk on Mar 17, 2014 11:45:11 GMT -5
Length and diameter of case designation has created a mess. The ONLY way to straighten it out so everyone can understand it is either go to straight wall ONLY or Full Monty center fires. I agree with your post, Woody. It is a real mess, as to what is legal or not due to case length. party Even if we go straight walled there will be more criteria than just straight walled. Currently we have a bullet bigger than, a case longer than and a case shorter than. Not too complicated. If we go straight walled we will have bullet bigger than, a case longer than and straight walled. Not too complicated but not any less complicated than what we currently have.
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Post by hornzilla on Mar 17, 2014 11:53:12 GMT -5
Before I started shortening my 444's I ways laughed. Only in Indiana could I (and did) put a rifle cartridge in a pistol and a pistol cartridge in a rifle and be legal.
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Post by steve46511 on Mar 17, 2014 12:08:51 GMT -5
, the other Savage ML-II that I acquired was converted to a .45 cal, shooting .40 cal Barnes bullets. Now, with that muzzleloader, it is shooting that 195g Barnes bullet at 2840 fps, so a 300 yd shot is easily accomplished. (+2" at 100 yds, 0" at 200 yds, -10" at 300 yds - bc of .25). Even at 300 yds, it still has more than 1,000 fpe. Yes, I have to be more aware of the wind conditions, as wind drift is more of a concern than bullet drop. Your BUILT savage (factory guns discontinued and out of the hands of but a few who look for an find one) and my 350JR are pretty much out of the loop of the "safety" discussion. Neither are considered "average" legal rounds and both shoot further than the majority of rounds being used therefore the number of people USING THEM is very low. The question at hand is if we would approve EVERYONE having the same range abilities since within more people's budget. If the state "approved OF" rounds like the 358 Hoosier and my 350Jr or any other wildcat (and your savage) as far as range and capabilities........the 358 Winchester and similar rounds could have been included from the start. They were not but from here this is about....should they be. Discussing "normal rounds" that Joe hunter can get his or her hands on and I hope we are looking at just that. Yes there are exceptions in some guns, some wildcats. I am back to the NUMBER OF people in the woods and the danger possible if the majority used similar rifles to yours and mine.....or faster ones. 2 cents (and especially "No offense) God Bless
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Post by deadeer on Mar 17, 2014 12:14:11 GMT -5
Before I started shortening my 444's I ways laughed. Only in Indiana could I (and did) put a rifle cartridge in a pistol and a pistol cartridge in a rifle and be legal. Only in Indiana!
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Post by steve46511 on Mar 17, 2014 12:27:10 GMT -5
Keep in mind there is a small difference in velocities out of rifles and LEGAL pistol barrels and a HUGE difference in the handgun shooter confidence in their ability to CONSISTANTLY shoot further than the ranges most shoot with shotguns.
While the pistol law appears "odd" at least, I for one am one who has taken several deer legal handguns out for a run at the range and have shot a half dozen with such.
Without a SOLID bench like rest or prone, 150 yards with ANY pistol round is a struggle for "most" and rarely are such rests available in the field situations unless one builds one.
One in a million hunters can CONSISTANTLY shoot any hand gun, regardless of round used IN THE FIELD at 150 yards, fewer by probably half even that at 200 yards. Not pointing fingers but those whom have shot a deer legal handgun more than a few times will tell you the same thing (I would wager).
It's an ENTIRELY different ball game. I can name a dozen long term deer hunters whom have bought one and sold it because "they couldn't hit anything". Fun? OH BABY........HARD? oh my!!
ONCE AGAIN......that example has FEW people out in the field with such, even being legal. Legalize standard rifle rounds IN RIFLES, and you will have thousands upon thousands of hunters switching to such.
God Bless
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Post by swilk on Mar 17, 2014 12:41:41 GMT -5
There is about 150 yard difference between when a 12g Hornady SST slug (fired from an average height man while standing and aiming parallel to the ground) hits the ground and when a .308 SST 150 grain round fired by the same guy in the same manner. Significant distance but not overly so ....
And .... there was an often cited study that said tumbling shotgun slugs were as much as, if not more so, dangerous downrange than rifle bullets.
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Post by tenring on Mar 17, 2014 12:47:49 GMT -5
Length and diameter of case designation has created a mess. The ONLY way to straighten it out so everyone can understand it is either go to straight wall ONLY or Full Monty center fires. Straight walled was what we asked for over 20 years ago. Scare tactics got the proposition filed away until Kyle brought up the subject again. Have asked many times at many places as to who got the "straight walled" removed. People changed the subject, even a few "what difference does it make", be glad we [who were never involved in the beginning], were able to get the PCRs' legal, plus several other lame statements that time has forgotten. Now who was it?
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Post by steve46511 on Mar 17, 2014 12:53:10 GMT -5
Depends on WHAT those distances are? IMHO?
Said distance, what ever each is, is literally the "radius" of the circle "within range" of that same hunter.
The area of that circle increases using the "Area equals Pi times r squared" formulation will increase dramatically compared to the increase of the distance.
??
God Bless
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Post by swilk on Mar 17, 2014 12:55:35 GMT -5
Length and diameter of case designation has created a mess. The ONLY way to straighten it out so everyone can understand it is either go to straight wall ONLY or Full Monty center fires. Straight walled was what we asked for over 20 years ago. Scare tactics got the proposition filed away until Kyle brought up the subject again. Have asked many times at many places as to who got the "straight walled" removed. People changed the subject, even a few "what difference does it make", be glad we [who were never involved in the beginning], were able to get the PCRs' legal, plus several other lame statements that time has forgotten. Now who was it? Straight walled because that would effectively cap what performance can be achieved? Or straight walled because it would more easily clarify the rule? I think a case could easily be made for the first .... a case could easily be made against the second. Or is it something else?
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Post by swilk on Mar 17, 2014 12:57:18 GMT -5
Depends on WHAT those distances are? IMHO? Said distance, what ever each is, is literally the "radius" of the circle "within range" of that same hunter. The area of that circle increases using the "Area equals Pi times r squared" formulation will increase dramatically compared to the increase of the distance. ?? God Bless And a degree off plane one way or the other makes a significant difference ... a couple degrees up and the 12G slug has a far greater distance than the .308. My point stands.
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Post by steve46511 on Mar 17, 2014 12:59:54 GMT -5
off plane would not be comparing apples to apples, sorry. We will agree to disagree my friend. If speaking in terms of off plane, these statistics can give anyone interested a little food for thought comparing how far rounds CAN go, even though none of us are shooting at flying whitetail, it lays a little ground work considering abilities of a few rounds. Depends on where you look I suppose but the distance I found on the "maximum distance a 12 gauge slug CAN travel" it was 800 yards. I will agree before hand it depends much on the slug/round chosen. We all know the "lowly" 22 lr will go further....comparing RANGE alone, not damage at that range. www.tpwd.state.tx.us/learning/hunter_education/homestudy/firearms/bullets.phtmlGod Bless
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Post by hornzilla on Mar 17, 2014 13:04:20 GMT -5
Keep in mind there is a small difference in velocities out of rifles and LEGAL pistol barrels and a HUGE difference in the handgun shooter confidence in their ability to CONSISTANTLY shoot further than the ranges most shoot with shotguns. While the pistol law appears "odd" at least, I for one am one who has taken several deer legal handguns out for a run at the range and have shot a half dozen with such. Without a SOLID bench like rest or prone, 150 yards with ANY pistol round is a struggle for "most" and rarely are such rests available in the field situations unless one builds one. One in a million hunters can CONSISTANTLY shoot any hand gun, eregardless of round used IN THE FIELD at 150 yards, fewer by probably half even that at 200 yards. Not pointing fingers but those whom have shot a deer legal handgun more than a few times will tell you the same thing (I would wager). It's an ENTIRELY different ball game. I can name a dozen long term deer hunters whom have bought one and sold it because "they couldn't hit anything". Fun? OH BABY........HARD? oh my!! ONCE AGAIN......that example has FEW people out in the field with such, even being legal. Legalize standard rifle rounds IN RIFLES, and you will have thousands upon thousands of hunters switching to such. God Bless I wasn't talking about accurate on target hits. I'm just telling you that the 308 bullet out of my Contender is just as deadly down range as it would be out of a rifle. (or very close to). I also know that there would be more rifle hunters in the field. But I'm also telling you that these rounds wouldn't be any worse than the wildcats we have now.
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Post by hornzilla on Mar 17, 2014 13:05:13 GMT -5
Keep in mind there is a small difference in velocities out of rifles and LEGAL pistol barrels and a HUGE difference in the handgun shooter confidence in their ability to CONSISTANTLY shoot further than the ranges most shoot with shotguns. While the pistol law appears "odd" at least, I for one am one who has taken several deer legal handguns out for a run at the range and have shot a half dozen with such. Without a SOLID bench like rest or prone, 150 yards with ANY pistol round is a struggle for "most" and rarely are such rests available in the field situations unless one builds one. One in a million hunters can CONSISTANTLY shoot any hand gun, eregardless of round used IN THE FIELD at 150 yards, fewer by probably half even that at 200 yards. Not pointing fingers but those whom have shot a deer legal handgun more than a few times will tell you the same thing (I would wager). It's an ENTIRELY different ball game. I can name a dozen long term deer hunters whom have bought one and sold it because "they couldn't hit anything". Fun? OH BABY........HARD? oh my!! ONCE AGAIN......that example has FEW people out in the field with such, even being legal. Legalize standard rifle rounds IN RIFLES, and you will have thousands upon thousands of hunters switching to such. God Bless I wasn't talking about accurate on target hits. I'm just telling you that the 308 bullet out of my Contender is just as deadly down range as it would be out of a rifle. (or very close to). I also know that there would be more rifle hunters in the field. But I'm also telling you that these rounds wouldn't be any worse than the wildcats we have now.
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Post by swilk on Mar 17, 2014 13:07:07 GMT -5
Impossible to compare apples to apples .... unless you have a method of knowing exactly how far each projectile will continue on once it has touched earth.
And like I said .... one study says the shotgun slug will go further which could make its "radius" bigger than the .308 even when fired from identical situations.
However ... we can agree to disagree.
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Post by steve46511 on Mar 17, 2014 13:11:56 GMT -5
Keep in mind there is a small difference in velocities out of rifles and LEGAL pistol barrels and a HUGE difference in the handgun shooter confidence in their ability to CONSISTANTLY shoot further than the ranges most shoot with shotguns. While the pistol law appears "odd" at least, I for one am one who has taken several deer legal handguns out for a run at the range and have shot a half dozen with such. Without a SOLID bench like rest or prone, 150 yards with ANY pistol round is a struggle for "most" and rarely are such rests available in the field situations unless one builds one. One in a million hunters can CONSISTANTLY shoot any hand gun, eregardless of round used IN THE FIELD at 150 yards, fewer by probably half even that at 200 yards. Not pointing fingers but those whom have shot a deer legal handgun more than a few times will tell you the same thing (I would wager). It's an ENTIRELY different ball game. I can name a dozen long term deer hunters whom have bought one and sold it because "they couldn't hit anything". Fun? OH BABY........HARD? oh my!! ONCE AGAIN......that example has FEW people out in the field with such, even being legal. Legalize standard rifle rounds IN RIFLES, and you will have thousands upon thousands of hunters switching to such. God Bless I wasn't talking about accurate on target hits. I'm just telling you that the 308 bullet out of my Contender is just as deadly down range as it would be out of a rifle. (or very close to). I also know that there would be more rifle hunters in the field. But I'm also telling you that these rounds wouldn't be any worse than the wildcats we have now. I agree 100 percent but the danger would lie in SEVERAL thousand OF THEM in use since IN a rifle. I am not saying the ROUNDS are less dangerous in a handgun. Just few use them. God Bless
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