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Post by steve46511 on Mar 17, 2014 13:15:57 GMT -5
Impossible to compare apples to apples .... unless you have a method of knowing exactly how far each projectile will continue on once it has touched earth. And like I said .... one study says the shotgun slug will go further which could make its "radius" bigger than the .308 even when fired from identical situations. However ... we can agree to disagree. I will happily agree to disagree with you, buddy and have no PROOF I am correct. I will say that the powers that be that do decide? They will be looking at how far the bullets go from such considered, apples to apples will only be what they determine to compare.......just like you an I. The report I posted above in another post shows that study that shows a 308 is capable of "2.5-3.5 miles". Maybe they can? but I've a problem wrapping my head around any shotgun slug coming close to half that. God Bless!
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Post by swilk on Mar 17, 2014 13:18:21 GMT -5
Logic says that a bullet that goes faster and further is more dangerous .... but does it really matter enough to matter?
IMO ... no.
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Post by steve46511 on Mar 17, 2014 13:22:32 GMT -5
Logic says that a bullet that goes faster and further is more dangerous .... but does it really matter enough to matter? IMO ... no. Maybe. Depends on whom you ask. We have farmers that shut their land down for hunting during harvest for those using SHOTGUNS. They might have a difference of opinion. ? I also know of land owners who will NOT let me hunt coyotes or groundhogs or anything else with a centerfire....."for safety reasons" and none of them think I'm TOTALLY insane. It will be interesting, IF and when a change happens to see if even an explanation IS GIVEN for those chosen LOL God Bless
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Post by swilk on Mar 17, 2014 13:26:08 GMT -5
I would only ask folks I thought had a decent grasp on things .... when I look for answers everyone is entitled to their opinions but that dont mean I have to be interested in them.
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Post by hornzilla on Mar 17, 2014 13:36:18 GMT -5
All I know for sure is next year. I will have my 444. Might be normal length or slightly shortened. And a 308 in my Encore pistol.Everyone needs to be safe no matter what they choose to use.
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Post by throbak on Mar 17, 2014 14:23:36 GMT -5
Picture this Brother Yoder his kids his Dad their 10 kids Each of those 10 kids with well are you starting to see the Pic and each of them have a HPR hunting their 125 acres next to your Farm availability is the determining factor with the wildcats Farms are too small and ground too flat and too many SKS and those type weapons out there that would be legal with all HPR included to be made legal to hunt with in Indiana IMHO Oh and the Yoders That WOULD Happen
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Post by hornzilla on Mar 17, 2014 14:42:09 GMT -5
We could keep the 35 caliber part that we have now. And as for The Yoders. Easy min/max on beard length. Lol.
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Post by firstwd on Mar 17, 2014 16:40:30 GMT -5
Personally, I don't see why the current legal pistol calibers are not also legal rifle calibers. Unless it's because that would make things too simple.....
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Post by esshup on Mar 17, 2014 20:02:47 GMT -5
Steve: I hear what you are saying. No arguments here. This isn't me, but here's an indiana deer legal pistol. 6.5 x 284. Ernie hit the prairie dog at 1800 yds, but didn't recover it. He figured the 140g A-Max was going slightly more than 1,000 fps when it hit the dog, and most likely penciled thru it. With such specialty pistols, shooting a deer at longer than normal distances should be easy if the shooter puts enough time behind the trigger and develops a good dope chart.
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Post by steve46511 on Mar 17, 2014 21:13:44 GMT -5
Steve: I hear what you are saying. No arguments here. This isn't me, but here's an indiana deer legal pistol. 6.5 x 284. Ernie hit the prairie dog at 1800 yds, but didn't recover it. He figured the 140g A-Max was going slightly more than 1,000 fps when it hit the dog, and most likely penciled thru it. With such specialty pistols, shooting a deer at longer than normal distances should be easy if the shooter puts enough time behind the trigger and develops a good dope chart. Yep. Ive talked to Ernie (several years ago) and know of his work well enough. Read many of Ernie's articles there is additional information that such shots are NORMALLY connections made after 3-5 "ranging" shots at the same animal, another thing not comparable to Indiana deer hunting. IMHO "Enough time" to be anywhere like Erie would be recorded in decades not hours, again, not in the context of number of rifles in rifle rounds for the average Joe and the danger that it would include (IMO). I HAD a 6.5-284 MOA pistol, Leopold Mark 4 RIFLE scope (similar to those Ernie uses) these specialty pistols WILL reach right out there, but few......very few, can match Ernie even with a rifle. yes they are legal here. Have been a long time. HOW MANY of them have any us SEE being used in INdiana deer fields? Like the number of those out there with 22-250 varmint rifles, there isn't enough to create a huge danger zone TOTALLY in numbers, nothing in comparison to the huge number that would be using standard centerfire rifles for deer, if all rounds were legal. I cant compare what the average Joe can do with even one of THOSE handguns, not for deer here in IN. They don't use them, even though they can. Should tens of thousands of hunters start using them, since currently legal? Yes, I think we would have issues with deaths and damage to things being shot not intended to BE shot. Ernie shoots ONLY prone OR on the portable bench he takes along on hunts. Could be done here in IN and extreme ranges could be shot. Shooting one of those leaning against a tree is a nightmare. I've tried. I could readily group, as could most of you, decent "deer sized" groups if using our current wildcats ...ON A BENCH.......WAY out there beyond what we now take shots. Again, none of which is anything in context of what kind of danger increase we could have turning loose every jack of all trades (unlike Ernie who lives and breaths long range handgunning) with 7mm mag deer rifles or similar. IF ANYTHING, Ernie's capabilities lean more to MY side of the safety issue. While VERY few use such in handguns.....THEY WILL BE CAPABLE of throwing bullets similar ranges in a rifle, actually further. While NO one I know would shoot those ranges at a deer, THE BULLET can easily go that far but normally WOULDN'T simply because if you asked Ernie he would tell you his trajectory is measured in FEET...lots of them. I believe Ernie (this is not a joke) actually shot down a goose (or some other fowl) that "flew into" his trajectory peak while out prairie dog hunting. I'm sure the story is still online BUT......may not be. He was quite embarrassed but did call the CO and report the mishap. We are in agreement......THE PISTOLS CAN shoot way way out there. I'll stick to my only about 1 in a million can CONSISTANTLY shoot deer at distances past shotgun slug ranges with a handgun, NOT in standard deer hunting conditions. Therein is the reason they are not commonly used NOW. The RIFLES of the same rounds can do so more easily, for numerous TIMES the number of hunters. Quite easily shooting beyond the capabilities of the average deer hunter who is shooting such. As you said, and I agree, "trigger time" is mandatory for efficient, safe use of centerfires. Few do so with slugs yet 100 percent of those I have asked indicate that "150 yards is a piece of cake" for them. I've also seen some of those same shoot from a bench too, under much better conditions and cant shoot 100 yards groups less than 6 inches. VERY few do or would, by my observations during the past 20 years or more, put in this "trigger time" yet that would not stop them from TRYING (shooting longer ranges than they themselves are capable) Those doing so is where the largest problem would arise with legalizing "any centerfire of 243 and up", used by literally thousands of hunters. I've posted before that I have witnessed first hand, and way too often, "hunters" shooting at running deer 2-300 yards out with SHOTGUNS. Centerfires in the hands of those same guys make me shudder thinking of how far they would TRY to shoot deer. God Bless Steve My MOA handgun in 6.5-284 before I put the Leupold on it. It is actually one of a pair I had years back.
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Post by drs on Mar 18, 2014 4:10:47 GMT -5
I agree with your post, Woody. It is a real mess, as to what is legal or not due to case length. party Even if we go straight walled there will be more criteria than just straight walled. Currently we have a bullet bigger than, a case longer than and a case shorter than. Not too complicated. If we go straight walled we will have bullet bigger than, a case longer than and straight walled. Not too complicated but not any less complicated than what we currently have. Here's what I believe. If and when the IDNR gets its act together, politics set aside, they will one day finalize a list of legal centerfire cartridges that will be legal. Indiana has too many individuals, in their DNR, that know very little about various cartridges and how they would affect Deer Hunting in Indiana. They must consider factors such as population (Human) density in certain areas of the State, the terrain, roads, homes, and the projected population growth of Humans bring "Urban Sprawl". All data needs to be taken in consideration when determining which centerfire cartridges will be suitable and safe. In several States one can't use rifles in certain sections, one being the State of Michigan, which allows the use of rifle cartridges ONLY in the upper part of the state.
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Post by featherduster on Mar 18, 2014 5:28:17 GMT -5
Somehow I just don't see the thrill of shooting a game animal at great distances,I love it when that animal is up close so close you can smell it. Although I no longer archery hunt I loved archery hunting for that very reason. I personally have never shot at or killed a deer beyond 40-50 yards. With our ever increasing population and urban sprawl we need to develop guns that can safely allow the use of them with the ability to take down a large animals without that long down range travel.
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Post by swilk on Mar 18, 2014 5:56:13 GMT -5
Dave - who, specifically, works at the DNR that knows little about various cartridges? If there are a lot of folks, as claimed, naming one or two (and stating why you have the option they don't understand ballistics) should be easy enough.
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Post by drs on Mar 18, 2014 6:09:45 GMT -5
Dave - who, specifically, works at the DNR that knows little about various cartridges? If there are a lot of folks, as claimed, naming one or two (and stating why you have the option they don't understand ballistics) should be easy enough. Just about everyone who is employed there, making policies that don't make any sense. The way I see it, the insurance companies call most of the shots on policies like bag limits, and what types of equipment one can use to bag a Deer. But take note that Indiana isn't the only state with this issue; Kentucky, for instance, has several rules regarding hunting equipment. For instance: A Squirrel Hunter can only use either a shotgun or rimfire rifle or pistol for hunting Squirrels. Back in Indiana; I used my .22 Hornet or .25-20 rifles, loaded light for hunting Squirrels, but can't use them down here in ky for some unknown reason. BUT, I can use my .22 Hornet or .25-20 for hunting Deer!!!!!! So your IDNR isn't the only State that has individuals working for them, that don't fully understand their job. As for ballistics, and the understanding of such, I am certain there are some who understand this concept, but they aren't the ones making the rules.
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Post by swilk on Mar 18, 2014 7:04:00 GMT -5
Give me a name ... I would like to contact them to see if they agree with the opinion they do not understand ballistics.
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Post by swilk on Mar 18, 2014 7:08:24 GMT -5
I doubt those making the decision of what to allow and what not to allow lack the noggin power to understand ballistics. They might be influenced by politics or individuals who "want" a certain something but ignorance likely plays no part in decision making.
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Post by Woody Williams on Mar 18, 2014 7:09:48 GMT -5
Drs, I disagree. While not everyone who works at the DNR knows as much about firearms as the average member here there are enough there that know what is what. I also believe that the hiarchy is smart enough to include those individuals in meetings when rifles are discussed.
My belief is that the DNR is taking incremental steps towards full inclusion of all deer capable firearms. They feel they need to do that as the anti-propaganda in "high powered rifles" can be considerable. Heck, look at some of the anti talk we had with simple PCRs. Even among sportmen- they called us John Wayne wannabes that would spray the woods with rapid fire. I even saw some of that in the latest input. Some said "Ok, but no 'assault weapons' ". I guess they don't realize that some of the PCR caliber a now can be fired from an AR platform
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Post by Woody Williams on Mar 18, 2014 7:10:45 GMT -5
Steve, Those hand guns just look like short rifles to me..
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Post by chriskline on Mar 18, 2014 8:11:31 GMT -5
Keep things the way they are, with the way urban sprawl is taking up hunting ground I feel that long range guns do not have a place in my part of the state. I also feel that the allowed guns should have sufficient knock down power to clean kill an animal, that being said I feel air rifles have no place in wild free roaming big game hunting. What difference does it make how a projectile is propelled to a velocity capable of delivering a kill? Somehow I just don't see the thrill of shooting a game animal at great distances,I love it when that animal is up close so close you can smell it. Although I no longer archery hunt I loved archery hunting for that very reason. I personally have never shot at or killed a deer beyond 40-50 yards. With our ever increasing population and urban sprawl we need to develop guns that can safely allow the use of them with the ability to take down a large animals without that long down range travel. Not everyone live in urban areas or even areas that are developing. It wouldnt be that difficult to divide the states into zones and set restrictions for each zone. I remember some years back when i lived in Buffalo, the zones we hunted were shotgun only, but if you went east into the Adirondak regions you were allowed to use rifles. I could see a situation similar to that working well in the state.
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Post by steve46511 on Mar 18, 2014 8:38:27 GMT -5
Steve, Those hand guns just look like short rifles to me.. They WEIGH as much too, and about 10 times harder to hit with...unless on a bench or a REALLY good prone rest. I have taken deer with 357, 44mag and 35Rem (contender and XP 100) but these I sold before season. It just wasn't for me decided after out shooting one of them awhile. Excellent accuracy, excellent 8 oz trigger, deadly as heck off a great rest. Just not something I felt sensible for me and my hunting methods after using such awhile. Luckily, they take a bit to get built. I had ready buyers, especially for the new unfired one. oh yeah.........LOUD? ?? oh my. Double hearing protection, MANDATORY. The proverbial bomb going off. God Bless
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