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Post by subzero350 on Dec 15, 2014 15:15:19 GMT -5
I've been seeing this term thrown around a lot on here lately. I'm just wondering where the proof of it is.
About 1/2 the hunters I talk to (in-person) are rack hunters. They tell me that they will NOT shoot any does and won't even shoot any "young" bucks. The rest consider themselves lucky to get 1 doe a season, and that doesn't always happen. I'm not aware of anyone, personally, who has ever filled his or her county antlerless quota in all the years I've been hunting.
One of the problems we have up here in the northeastern part of the state is lack of areas to hunt. There are very few public lands where you are permitted to hunt, and most of those don't permit you to take does during certain parts of the season. Most private land owners don't want anybody hunting - period.
So, I ask, where is your proof that the does are being over-harvested? I don't want hearsay or assumptions based on what you are seeing yourself (or lack thereof), I want actual evidence. Who do you know has filled their county's antlerless quota lately? If ever?
Just curious.
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Post by chubwub on Dec 15, 2014 16:06:16 GMT -5
My in-laws harvest does. They hunt primarily public land in Brown, Owen, Morgan and Monroe county. Fiance's brother in-law carries lifetime license and uses/abuses to the fullest extent possible. When they hunt they bring 5 kids with guns and will come back with 5-6 does a piece on a good day. They will also invite their idiot neighbors and other friends to go with them and routinely get a party of 7-8 people out in the woods and shoot at every deer they see. Last year they filled the quota for Monroe, Brown, Owen and Morgan County. Based on their Facebook posts and what they had hanging, they killed around 20-30 antlerless deer last year. This year they have slowed down and as far as I know they have only managed to kill 8-9. And just because I know it will get mentioned, no the CO cannot do anything about it and yes they have gotten in trouble in the past.
Our next door neighbors do things the legal way and killed 6 does last year between 2 men.
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Post by tynimiller on Dec 15, 2014 16:19:49 GMT -5
A few of our neighbors will take as many does as they can get....no matter how many deer they're seeing for the season.
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Post by subzero350 on Dec 15, 2014 17:53:25 GMT -5
My in-laws harvest does. They hunt primarily public land in Brown, Owen, Morgan and Monroe county. Fiance's brother in-law carries lifetime license and uses/abuses to the fullest extent possible. When they hunt they bring 5 kids with guns and will come back with 5-6 does a piece on a good day. They will also invite their idiot neighbors and other friends to go with them and routinely get a party of 7-8 people out in the woods and shoot at every deer they see. Last year they filled the quota for Monroe, Brown, Owen and Morgan County. Based on their Facebook posts and what they had hanging, they killed around 20-30 antlerless deer last year. This year they have slowed down and as far as I know they have only managed to kill 8-9. And just because I know it will get mentioned, no the CO cannot do anything about it and yes they have gotten in trouble in the past. 20-30 antlerless between 8 people sounds a bit extreme (I'm not doubting what you are telling me, but I just can't understand why people would want all that work or pay out all the money for processing). What are they doing with all this meat? Somebody in that party own a slaughterhouse? Or are they just shooting animals for the sake of shooting and killing and not utilizing the meat? If there is illegal activity going on, you have a duty to report it for the sake of all hunters. Ok, so 3 a piece. I don't see anything wrong with that if it is legal AND they are using the meat.
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Post by sakorifle on Dec 15, 2014 17:54:12 GMT -5
Greetings Yes the quickest way to reduce a population is to hammer the does, BUT remember it also takes a daddy deer to make a baby deer, a shortage of either will give the same effect over time. This i know, my mummy told me, and i am in the business of reducing out of control roe populations. regards Billy.
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Post by beehunter on Dec 15, 2014 17:54:22 GMT -5
I read the following info from and article about the 2012 Indiana Deer Harvest. The total harvest was made up of 45,936 antlered deer and 90,312 antlerless deer.... I realize a certain percentage of those deer were more than likely button bucks but its still a big chunk of does killed out of the herd. To ne that's all the proof I need.
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Post by chubwub on Dec 15, 2014 17:55:53 GMT -5
Greetings Yes the quickest way to reduce a population is to hammer the does, BUT remember it also takes a daddy deer to make a baby deer, a shortage of either will give the same effect over time. This i know, my mummy told me, and i am in the business of reducing out of control roe populations. regards Billy. Billy, I was taught in animal science that the usefulness of a male in reproduction can be reduced down to a collection bottle and an eyedropper.
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Post by sakorifle on Dec 15, 2014 18:00:26 GMT -5
very good chubwub I really don't have an answer to that, lol, you win. hehehehheh. Billy
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Post by sakorifle on Dec 15, 2014 18:17:48 GMT -5
the term antlerless deer actually shows nothing when talking about deer populations. One needs to know how many bucks and how many actual does, i look at harvesting ninety bucks and a hundred does that keeps the population stable, it does not drop it significantly or i would not be able to achieve the same figures every year. On my private piece i harvest equal numbers very small numbers two of each sex, this seems to give me deer to harvest for myself and friends freezers every year. regards Billy
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Post by chubwub on Dec 15, 2014 18:20:50 GMT -5
Oh no worries on doubting me. My fiance told me all this stuff while we were dating and I didn't believe it until I saw some of it with my own eyes. It was shocking to see how many deer they will pile up and just leave to rot. The brother-in-law is just addicted to killing deer to be honest. There is nothing he loves more, and literally there are not enough deer in the woods to satisfy his need to kill deer. Doe, fawn, spike or big buck he will kill them all and unfortunately he is very good at killing deer. I'd almost say it's like he has an addiction problem that he chose to manifest as killing and poaching deer. He also gets away with a lot because he does have a lifetime handicap license and can shoot from a vehicle as well.
As for the question of the meat, about half of it they leave to rot. They take it out back and leave them hanging during the cold weather and then never get around to processing it for whatever reason. The other half they will actually put in the freezer and use. At least 5 rotted in the shed last year that I am 100% certain of.
You cannot get them for wanton waste as they have made the effort to tag the game, retrieve it and bring it back home. Once it is home they can throw the entire carcass in a compost pile or the trash, backstraps and all for all the DNR cares. It is hard to pinpoint who killed what deer and how it was tagged because I did not personally witness it happen nor did anyone else who would snitch. They know how to keep their stories straight unfortunately. The DNR has kind of brought this kind of abuse/exploitation on themselves unfortunately with the advent of the online check-in and paper license system.
I don't want to get in a habit of calling the DNR for things that cannot be proven without hard evidence. They get tired of dealing with people who appear to cry wolf all the time as well. The DNR is aware of the situation, but without hard evidence not much is going to happen until the in-laws really screw up. We of course keep our eyes peeled for the perfect chance.
Unfortunately, there is enough lee-way with the way the laws are set-up now that their distasteful hunting practices are pretty much "legal" in the eyes of the law.
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Post by subzero350 on Dec 15, 2014 18:41:56 GMT -5
I don't want to get in a habit of calling the DNR for things that cannot be proven without hard evidence. They get tired of dealing with people who appear to cry wolf all the time as well. The DNR is aware of the situation, but without hard evidence not much is going to happen until the in-laws really screw up. We of course keep our eyes peeled for the perfect chance. I don't have an answer for your situation except to say if you do nothing, then they'll probably keep on doing what they are doing. If it was me, I would crawl up the DNR's butt until they did something about these poachers. I don't think you should care if the DNR gets annoyed with you calling them about every "little" thing - THAT'S WHAT THEY GET PAID FOR. Sooner or later they might get the point that perhaps there's a real big problem with these guys that warrants further investigation.
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Post by shouldernuke on Dec 15, 2014 19:52:04 GMT -5
I've been seeing this term thrown around a lot on here lately. I'm just wondering where the proof of it is. About 1/2 the hunters I talk to (in-person) are rack hunters. They tell me that they will NOT shoot any does and won't even shoot any "young" bucks. The rest consider themselves lucky to get 1 doe a season, and that doesn't always happen. I'm not aware of anyone, personally, who has ever filled his or her county antlerless quota in all the years I've been hunting. One of the problems we have up here in the northeastern part of the state is lack of areas to hunt. There are very few public lands where you are permitted to hunt, and most of those don't permit you to take does during certain parts of the season. Most private land owners don't want anybody hunting - period. So, I ask, where is your proof that the does are being over-harvested? I don't want hearsay or assumptions based on what you are seeing yourself (or lack thereof), I want actual evidence. Who do you know has filled their county's antlerless quota lately? If ever? Just curious. You want proof all you have to do is look at the state of the deer herd now compaired to about 10 years ago and simply look at the Antlerless harvest numbers per county or as whole but as a whole can be deceptive as some counties are in much better shape than others .. I personally know 4 hunters last year that killed 8 or more deer in my county two even brag about it .FYI they show pics to anyone who will look at em. Thats enough proof for the DNR and me .Since the DNR and hunters are in a bit of a panic ..Why would the DNR lowering or even deeply cutting tag numbers in many counties ..?
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Post by shouldernuke on Dec 15, 2014 19:54:42 GMT -5
My in-laws harvest does. They hunt primarily public land in Brown, Owen, Morgan and Monroe county. Fiance's brother in-law carries lifetime license and uses/abuses to the fullest extent possible. When they hunt they bring 5 kids with guns and will come back with 5-6 does a piece on a good day. They will also invite their idiot neighbors and other friends to go with them and routinely get a party of 7-8 people out in the woods and shoot at every deer they see. Last year they filled the quota for Monroe, Brown, Owen and Morgan County. Based on their Facebook posts and what they had hanging, they killed around 20-30 antlerless deer last year. This year they have slowed down and as far as I know they have only managed to kill 8-9. And just because I know it will get mentioned, no the CO cannot do anything about it and yes they have gotten in trouble in the past. 20-30 antlerless between 8 people sounds a bit extreme (I'm not doubting what you are telling me, but I just can't understand why people would want all that work or pay out all the money for processing). What are they doing with all this meat? Somebody in that party own a slaughterhouse? Or are they just shooting animals for the sake of shooting and killing and not utilizing the meat? If there is illegal activity going on, you have a duty to report it for the sake of all hunters. Ok, so 3 a piece. I don't see anything wrong with that if it is legal AND they are using the meat. FYI most deer hunters who kill many deer a year process them their selves its very common and easy to do . Most deer hunters in this area process their own anyways at $75.00 - $100.00 a pop .
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Post by shouldernuke on Dec 15, 2014 19:56:33 GMT -5
the term antlerless deer actually shows nothing when talking about deer populations. One needs to know how many bucks and how many actual does, i look at harvesting ninety bucks and a hundred does that keeps the population stable, it does not drop it significantly or i would not be able to achieve the same figures every year. On my private piece i harvest equal numbers very small numbers two of each sex, this seems to give me deer to harvest for myself and friends freezers every year. regards Billy FYI only about 13,000 antlerless deer were button bucks or bucks here ..
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Post by steve46511 on Dec 15, 2014 20:27:10 GMT -5
This subject, like a heck of a lost list of others, has been bantered about for decades and the responses are almost always near the same regardless of the side one takes.
A lot don't but I think the bonus county tag flexibility, as far as numbers available, is a decent answer and "worrying" about doe over harvest has less merit now than in any other time I've hunted.
Most will complain that the numbers of such will be adjusted "too late" but with it being impossible for the DNR to KNOW how many deer there are and really KNOW how much the weather affected hours afield and deer taken and all the other variables, "after the fact" is the only method they have available.
To change the numbers of such based on one year of harvest would create a yo-yo of them up and down all the time but 3 years running of numbers taken lower than average will be an indication such is called for so I don't see how they COULD do it any other way.
That said it could produce some lean years for meat hunters but there is at least some kind of control over a certain number of years.
"Over" harvesting is a relative phrase depending on what the hunter wishes to hunt.
Some feel a 1 to 1 buck to doe ratio is "perfect", some don't.
The current bonus county tag system and it's ability to fluctuate in numbers available is a method I believe was developed to not only reduce the herd numbers, but also it has the authority to STOP over harvest of does. The term TO ME, however, is not about such and such a group shooting 20 does but about the numbers that are remaining and/or the number available the next year for all.
The toughest part for each hunter to wrap their head around is just because I DID NOT see a bunch of does one year, does not necessarily mean their number is down. It's not like they are spread evenly, even within one farm, let alone an entire county.
God Bless
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Post by schall53 on Dec 16, 2014 9:26:36 GMT -5
It doesn't take a genius to see the herd is in the decline. Just look at a couple of facts. Deer are born at a basically 50-50 rate of bucks to does, if anything leaning a little to the buck side. Now look at the harvest figure, if we are taking more does it can only have one effect. Less females mean less fawns born, plain and simple.
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Post by tynimiller on Dec 16, 2014 10:07:25 GMT -5
Killing a buck does nothing for the herd, another buck will gladly fill right in and breed the does he was going to....take a doe out you've lowered the localized herd by her, than her and her 1or2 offspring the next year, than her and her offsprings and her offsprings offspring the next next year. Some areas are lush with does, others aren't. Hunters can either choose to help it or not...the sad reality is many of the deer harvested are done so by people who hunt between 1-5 days of the year and usually just a couple hours. I AM NOT SAYING THAT IS BAD, but what I am saying is those people unless they run tons of cams cannot have a good grasp on their localized deer herd. Perhaps they should lay off the does for a year...but they wouldn't know and so blast 4 or 5 of the 6 local does utilizing their "40 acres" regularly and the neighboring ones... It's a cycle, once deer numbers fall enough in your area some hunters will get turned off by not seeing deer easily and numbers will rebound as less hunters hit the woods and then in a few years it will cycle again most likely. I've said it all along if the DNR and others focused solely on educating hunters not regulating hunters we'd be in a better position...and then the only thing we need to do is fight every kind of illegal hunting activity going on. Also, Chub...there is no excuse for not calling the DNR. That dude or family is straight up the definition of Wanton Waste and if nothing else knowing the DNR is on to him may lesson his "idiot" tendencies.
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Post by voodoofire1 on Dec 16, 2014 11:13:27 GMT -5
I live in southern Wells county, all the proof I need is based on what I've seen and heard in hunting this area for the past 18 years, use to be nothing to see 10-15 each day, this year I've seen 3 deer all year, not just during hunting season mind you, but all year long, last year I saw only 2 all year, 2012 I saw but 1 doe and a fawn......the really bad part of this is that I live in the woods, 2 ponds and a creek that butts up to the Salamonie river, I bought this place 9 years ago not only for a beautiful, peaceful place to live, but for the hunting opportunities it afforded my family in the 9 years before we moved here.....I am out in these woods each and every day, and what I've seen with my own eyes cannot be disputed by someone in a fancy office or written down by someone who has never been here or seen the decline.....I could be wrong though, maybe Aliens came down and sucked up the deer.....but it seems the fellas in our local archery league who bragged about shooting 7-8 deer a year and giving them away, don't have much to brag about anymore, because they too are now lucky to just see a deer let alone shoot one......And few public hunting lands??...Seriously?? What about Mississinewa, Salamonie, and Roush?
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Post by boonechaser on Dec 16, 2014 11:18:36 GMT -5
Adjoining landowner's property (75 acre's). Has 3 guy's down from Indpls., they have killed 13 does so far and according to my conversation with one of them, are wanting to kill 2 more to fill his freezer. LOL. I live in Switz. County. I have 150 acre's and we shot 5 does, 2 buck's and I shut hunting down Dec 1st as we need (IMO) no more killed. Fortunately for me I have a adjoining neighbor to my North (250 acre's) who killed 1 doe and 1 buck and adjoining neighbor to my west (220 acre's) who killed 1 doe. Ultimately if to many does are being harvested in your hunting area, place the blame where it belongs (on hunter's) and not on the IDNR. They don't pull the trigger. And yes IMO too many anterless deer are being harvested in my county and in the state. Again fortunately for me I have a couple neighbor's as well as my farm where we are not "kill happy". I am gonna work on my neighbor whom is letting so many does be killed on his property to see if I can get him to put some limit's on number killed.
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Post by Woody Williams on Dec 16, 2014 11:25:45 GMT -5
Want to relieve pressure on does? The state should go back to two bucks - one with a firearm and one with archery equipment..
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