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Post by Huntnfreak on Jan 9, 2015 11:43:46 GMT -5
If they can't shoot worth a hoot then they shouldn't be taking long shots..therefore it shouldn't matter if they use what's legal now or what's being purposed. I don't care what anybody uses, but don't just grab a HPR and head out if you struggle at wounding and recovering deer now!
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Post by subzero350 on Jan 9, 2015 14:25:09 GMT -5
Also, I am wondering how land owners, that own cattle, how they will respond to the use of HPR for use in hunting Deer; not to mention areas where there are subdivisions and urban sprawl going on. Also, wonder how this will affect property owner's liability insurance rates if someone gets shot accidentally and sues the other hunter and/or the property owner (?) I foresee many hunting properties being off limits for HPR in Indiana when hunting Deer, or even closed. Some property owners will not want to deal with this issue, and close their property to hunting. Just too risky. I have news for you - this is and has already been the case with many property owners for at least the last 10 years with the current regs (at least the people I've talked to). I've heard a number of excuses from those property owners (who don't allow hunting) as to why they don't want anyone hunting on their property. And one of the top excuses is they don't want bullet holes in their buildings (or houses) because they knew somebody that knew somebody else that said it happened to them. So I then ask about bow hunting only on the same property and the excuse changes to they just don't want the liability or hassle so the answer is still NO. The same excuses have already been used for many years by people who simply don't want anyone hunting their property. And I've heard these excuses long before the HPR legalization debate even came about. So nothing is going to change. People who don't want anyone hunting on their property aren't going to allow it even if the HPR legalization efforts fail. So you are going to gain nothing. People who currently allow shotgun hunting on their property have the power to tell those who they give permission to hunt what equipment they can use on said property. The landowner has control over that, don't they? And if the hunter does not want to abide by those rules, then access to said property can be denied by the land owner. Am I wrong? I'm sure somebody on here gets permission to hunt land someone else owns only with archery equipment and no guns. I don't see how the state legalizing HPRs is going to change this or force land owners to allow HPRs for hunting on their property. A landowner has the right to say no to anything they don't want going on in their property. It never ceases to amaze me how many people fail to understand physics in this matter. As countless others have said before (and the Penn. rifle study showed), shotgun slugs can be more dangerous than HPR rounds if the shot is not well placed, in certain circumstances. The only reason why land owners would have more fear of HPRs is because of the misinformation being spread by those who don't want HPRs legalized in the first place. But this begs the question: if you are against HPRs, then why aren't you also against the currently legal wildcat cartridges, such as the .358 Hoosier which performs close to (or in some cases, better than) many .30 cal rifle rounds that the state is proposing to legalize??? Why aren't you anti-HPR guys lobbying to ban anything that fires a projectile faster than say 2000 fps???
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Post by swilk on Jan 9, 2015 14:41:00 GMT -5
If they can't shoot worth a hoot then they shouldn't be taking long shots..therefore it shouldn't matter if they use what's legal now or what's being purposed. I don't care what anybody uses, but don't just grab a HPR and head out if you struggle at wounding and recovering deer now! Even the best of shooters can miss or wound .... it happens. The only sure thing is to never take a shot. Just leave it at you dont want them without trying to manufacture a reason.
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Post by Huntnfreak on Jan 9, 2015 14:46:54 GMT -5
If they can't shoot worth a hoot then they shouldn't be taking long shots..therefore it shouldn't matter if they use what's legal now or what's being purposed. I don't care what anybody uses, but don't just grab a HPR and head out if you struggle at wounding and recovering deer now! Even the best of shooters can miss or wound .... it happens. The only sure thing is to never take a shot. Just leave it at you dont want them without trying to manufacture a reason. Lol..I don't care if it passes..it won't change the way I hunt! (I own a .44 so I'm not anti-rifle)
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Post by swilk on Jan 9, 2015 14:48:59 GMT -5
I hunt with a 358WSSM but I am against the proposal ..... its not safety or wounding or because Im afraid my neighbor will kill "my" deer. I just dont like change.
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Post by stevein on Jan 9, 2015 15:00:43 GMT -5
I was in Walmart the other day. Sabot slugs $9 to $13 for 5. 30-30 $16 for 20, 30-06 $19 for 20, 44 mag $42 for 50. Entry level HPR are about the same as most slugguns. Except for mag capacity I am all for it.
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Post by jjas on Jan 9, 2015 15:34:56 GMT -5
If it passes, I'm fine with it as the calibers have been legal in hand guns for years. But if it passes I doubt that I purchase an hpr as my .44 mag pcr works just fine.
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Post by shouldernuke on Jan 9, 2015 16:02:47 GMT -5
No way its a sure in too much support and factual numbers involved here not just silly gut feelings about it . remember that there are ANTI hunting groups and individuals who will post negative responses to anything hunting related especially more weapons or hunting !! Shouldernuke, you very well might be correct concerning some "anti-Hunting" groups writing in voicing their opposition to HPR. Indiana is full of those type folks. BUT, I am also reading posts & letters from HUNTERS that are against the legalization of HPR in Indiana. Also, I am wondering how land owners, that own cattle, how they will respond to the use of HPR for use in hunting Deer; not to mention areas where there are subdivisions and urban sprawl going on. Also, wonder how this will affect property owner's liability insurance rates if someone gets shot accidentally and sues the other hunter and/or the property owner (?) I foresee many hunting properties being off limits for HPR in Indiana when hunting Deer, or even closed. Some property owners will not want to deal with this issue, and close their property to hunting. Just too risky. I am a land owner and we raise cattle right there on the farm its no big deal!!HPRs are already in use its all semantics at this point.This will not effect liabilities any more than the weapons that are now used by hunters its the same liability.
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Post by shouldernuke on Jan 9, 2015 16:21:27 GMT -5
They will and do far more so than slug guns and ML that is the truth of it . Doubt it will make a huge difference .... some guys just cant shoot worth a dang no matter what is in their hands. A .270 put in a bad place isnt any more deadly than a 12g slug in a bad place. A .270 through the heart/lungs wont kill any better than a 12g through the heart/lungs. What is at debate is not the power here it is the shootability and inherent greater accuracy of HPRs shell for sell with ML and Shotguns that frankly the normal hunter is luck to shoot a 4-5 inch group with at 100 yards but put a HPR in most of their hands even off a bench they are far more accurate man for man shot for shot .That is and has been a repeat over and over .There is far less recoil in HPR and less error in the HPRs since many ML are not even repeatable from shot 1 -3 that's just not the case with HPR loads .FYI most 270 and up HPRs have bout the the same or higher Foot pounds energy than most shotgun loads aside from close range 1 oz 3 inch mag shell ballistics under 50 yards and far more than any ML round today with far better trajectory inside 250 yards .That is a fact That's said a bad shot is a bad shot but the HPRs even outside the heart lung kill much faster than most ML and shotguns as the hydrostatic shock is far superior to the PCR rounds coming out of the ML and well todays shotgun hunters there are just too many variables in gun type barrel type and slug being used .Not so much in HPR rounds most 150 factory rounds say in a 30 the cals are all close in specs that's a fact as well . I disagree with the they are no more lethal thought train I have hunted with them for over 4 decades around the country and seen hundreds use them they are a better hunting tool than most of the average Joe weapons we use today no comparison in even average hands . We have had to use the junk of the hunting gun world for so long here that many don't even have a clue as to how much better the round for round gun for gun accuracy and power are on HPRs per same shooter instances . That said I support the new prop and truly believe that more deer will get checked in on first time trigger pulls with it rather than the wounding festival we now have in Bow and Shot gun season here . That means less deer dead from simply being lost due to poor or border line shooting and wounding then they have to shoot a second deer to make up for the firs one or second one they lost with the guns we now have .Will there be lost deer ??Yes but honestly bow hunters have the highest wound loss rate of any type hunting weapon users followed by the crap we now have to use in gun season. HPR hunters have the lowest wound loss rates of any type weapon use. To prove my point is simply look at the HPR and pistol rounds and the inherent accuracy and higher kill rates by those who use those rounds its there ask the users of those weapons how they would like to go back to the old shotgun and or ML now !! Nuff said on this by me . IMHO its already a done deal just waiting on the announcement .
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Post by sakorifle on Jan 9, 2015 16:46:41 GMT -5
Greetings I am keeping out of this, I think everyone knows my view. What I will tell you is I have never lost an animal with a body shot with a 308 and well selected ammo, never hit one in the back end mind. Anyone that does should kick his own backside Little bit nervous of 243 though,my personal view is they are too small for all but roe. 270,308, is a little bit like car insurance you never need it until you need it. Regards Billy
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Post by firstwd on Jan 9, 2015 18:00:50 GMT -5
Greetings I am keeping out of this, I think everyone knows my view. What I will tell you is I have never lost an animal with a body shot with a 308 and well selected ammo, never hit one in the back end mind. Anyone that does should kick his own backside Little bit nervous of 243 though,my personal view is they are too small for all but roe. 270,308, is a little bit like car insurance you never need it until you need it. Regards Billy The biggest difference for us is we cannot sell the meat, where yours goes to market and you have stricter regulations regarding that. Probably at least part of the reason archery hunting isn't allowed there, I would think. If one can place a .243 "on the plate", so to speak, they may run off but will expire rather quickly. People just need a decent set of tracking skills to complete the deal.
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Post by M4Madness on Jan 9, 2015 18:47:47 GMT -5
I really believe the State will side with the "cons" on this HPR issue. I don't. Since the DNR has already stated in their summary that they believe rifles to be safe for deer hunting, I believe that they will "ignore" any comment that mentions safety as a reason for opposition. Mailed input is heavily against ... Because most old-timers are afraid of change and also happen to be computer illiterate.
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Post by swilk on Jan 9, 2015 19:34:37 GMT -5
I did notice several mailed responses included the persons age and many of them were ....advanced......in years.
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Post by Woody Williams on Jan 9, 2015 19:40:19 GMT -5
C'mon now fellers...don't pigeon hole some of us older folks. Some of are pretty good at these new fangled doo-dads
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Post by greghopper on Jan 9, 2015 20:10:14 GMT -5
C'mon now fellers...don't pigeon hole some of us older folks. Some of are pretty good at these new fangled doo-dads Amen...preach it!! .....You got believe some folks are cringing at the amount of input the DNR get now days compared to the OLD way!! One thing for sure when you wake up the GUN folks they have a way of being HEARD good or bad!!
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Post by drs on Jan 10, 2015 5:19:00 GMT -5
Shouldernuke, you very well might be correct concerning some "anti-Hunting" groups writing in voicing their opposition to HPR. Indiana is full of those type folks. BUT, I am also reading posts & letters from HUNTERS that are against the legalization of HPR in Indiana. Also, I am wondering how land owners, that own cattle, how they will respond to the use of HPR for use in hunting Deer; not to mention areas where there are subdivisions and urban sprawl going on. Also, wonder how this will affect property owner's liability insurance rates if someone gets shot accidentally and sues the other hunter and/or the property owner (?) I foresee many hunting properties being off limits for HPR in Indiana when hunting Deer, or even closed. Some property owners will not want to deal with this issue, and close their property to hunting. Just too risky. I am a land owner and we raise cattle right there on the farm its no big deal!!HPRs are already in use its all semantics at this point.This will not effect liabilities any more than the weapons that are now used by hunters its the same liability. But YOU own that land where you raise cattle. Are you willing to allow other Hunters to Deer Hunt on that land with HPRs??? Before moving to Kentucky; I hunted on a farm where they also raised cattle near the Glendale F&W Area. The landowner once told me over the years he had six head of cattle shot by Hunters Trespassing on his land, during Deer Season, and this was in the days when Shotgun Slugs & M/L were only allowed. Can you imagine what could happen when HPR are legalized (?) You can now use PCR's & Wildcat cartridges with an overall length of 1.8" and .357" and up in caliber. Again, I ask what is wrong with just allowing .44 Magnums, .460 S&W, and other such cartridges, plus various wildcat cartridges for Deer Hunting?? Indiana is too flat and highly populated in most parts of the state and chances are the population will grow bringing on Urban Sprawl.
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Post by drs on Jan 10, 2015 5:47:23 GMT -5
I have news for you - this is and has already been the case with many property owners for at least the last 10 years with the current regs (at least the people I've talked to). I've heard a number of excuses from those property owners (who don't allow hunting) as to why they don't want anyone hunting on their property. And one of the top excuses is they don't want bullet holes in their buildings (or houses) because they knew somebody that knew somebody else that said it happened to them. So I then ask about bow hunting only on the same property and the excuse changes to they just don't want the liability or hassle so the answer is still NO.
I don't blame homeowners not wishing to have Hunters use HPR with a possibility of having a HPR bullet hit their home. This almost happen to my home down here in Ky. Some Poacher, one evening, poached a Deer in my front field from the road. If he would have missed he would have hit my house. Also, landowners liability insurance would most likely increase, and accidents would be more likely, Lawyers would love this!!
The same excuses have already been used for many years by people who simply don't want anyone hunting their property. And I've heard these excuses long before the HPR legalization debate even came about. So nothing is going to change. People who don't want anyone hunting on their property aren't going to allow it even if the HPR legalization efforts fail. So you are going to gain nothing. People who currently allow shotgun hunting on their property have the power to tell those who they give permission to hunt what equipment they can use on said property. The landowner has control over that, don't they? And if the hunter does not want to abide by those rules, then access to said property can be denied by the land owner. Am I wrong? I'm sure somebody on here gets permission to hunt land someone else owns only with archery equipment and no guns. I don't see how the state legalizing HPRs is going to change this or force land owners to allow HPRs for hunting on their property. A landowner has the right to say no to anything they don't want going on in their property.
You're correct on this, If I owned a farm in Indiana with cattle and nearby neighbors, I wouldn't allow Deer Hunting with HPRs, for safety reasons. Hunting with archery equipment like compound bows & Crossbows would be okay.
It never ceases to amaze me how many people fail to understand physics in this matter. As countless others have said before (and the Penn. rifle study showed), shotgun slugs can be more dangerous than HPR rounds if the shot is not well placed, in certain circumstances. The only reason why land owners would have more fear of HPRs is because of the misinformation being spread by those who don't want HPRs legalized in the first place.
ALL Firearms are dangerous if misused!! Shotgun slug, M/L as well as regular rifles are all capable of doing damage if the Hunter is careless. Like I posted earlier, there are good points made by BOTH "Pro" & "Con" issues over allowing HPR for Deer.
But this begs the question: if you are against HPRs, then why aren't you also against the currently legal wildcat cartridges, such as the .358 Hoosier which performs close to (or in some cases, better than) many .30 cal rifle rounds that the state is proposing to legalize??? Why aren't you anti-HPR guys lobbying to ban anything that fires a projectile faster than say 2000 fps???
Because they fall within the current law regarding centerfire cartridges and not too many Hunters use these wildcats. They stick with using what they can buy at Walmart like .357 Magnums and .44 Magnums. Also, I am not anti-High Powered Rifles at all. Just don't think it is prudent to allow their use in a highly populated State like Indiana. Here in Kentucky, we can use any HPR for Deer, but we have a lower population base, but some Wildlife areas only allow Shotgun Slugs for hunting, places like Fort Knox and other Wildlife areas in Kentucky.
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Post by drs on Jan 10, 2015 6:01:04 GMT -5
I was in Walmart the other day. Sabot slugs $9 to $13 for 5. 30-30 $16 for 20, 30-06 $19 for 20, 44 mag $42 for 50. Entry level HPR are about the same as most slugguns. Except for mag capacity I am all for it. If money is an issue, then buy a .44 Magnum. You can reload your shells for way under the $42/box price, and receive improved accuracy.
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Post by steve46511 on Jan 10, 2015 8:09:31 GMT -5
I've a lot of acquaintances that deer hunt and it's only those that shoot centerfire for other things are the ones reloading.
Buying the equipment, even used, to reload a handful of shells annually there is not going to be very many interested. At that rate it would take awhile to "pay for" the equipment.
That said, also considering the low number or rounds one shoots from a dedicated deer rifle annually, I can't see the cost of ammo being much of a burden.
Some of us shoot a couple boxes out practicing but I'd bet the average Joe don't shoot 6 rounds a year out of their deer gun.
God Bless
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Post by shouldernuke on Jan 10, 2015 10:42:06 GMT -5
I am a land owner and we raise cattle right there on the farm its no big deal!!HPRs are already in use its all semantics at this point.This will not effect liabilities any more than the weapons that are now used by hunters its the same liability. But YOU own that land where you raise cattle. Are you willing to allow other Hunters to Deer Hunt on that land with HPRs??? Before moving to Kentucky; I hunted on a farm where they also raised cattle near the Glendale F&W Area. The landowner once told me over the years he had six head of cattle shot by Hunters Trespassing on his land, during Deer Season, and this was in the days when Shotgun Slugs & M/L were only allowed. Can you imagine what could happen when HPR are legalized (?) You can now use PCR's & Wildcat cartridges with an overall length of 1.8" and .357" and up in caliber. Again, I ask what is wrong with just allowing .44 Magnums, .460 S&W, and other such cartridges, plus various wildcat cartridges for Deer Hunting?? Indiana is too flat and highly populated in most parts of the state and chances are the population will grow bringing on Urban Sprawl. Actually my land is already hunter surrounded by HPR and ML / Shot gunners we been fine for over 100 years a3 generations there with live stock crops and hunters .Truth is this is not PA or WI or MI with 1,000,000 to 2,000,000 hunters and hunters tend to hunt where the deer are and less people are .Urban zones withstanding . Truth is there is no such thing as too flat ....You ever hunt Nebraska ,MT WY on the plains area ?? Or been in parts of MI that looks like an Ironing board and yes there are house and farms everywhere in those places and there are woods and As stated you do not want them so I would leave it at that .Your reasons right now are mostly just personal feelings on this DRS . FYI we have thousands and thousands of Groundhog hunters and Coyote hunters shooting very flat shooting HPS every year as a matter of a fact I saw two just this morning in one of the more human populated counties here they were not shooting at the houses around that field and woods . .This is no big deal especially since we have very few hunters compared to most states that have millions of hunters that us HPRs every year . You need to go hunt some of those states some more its a very educational experience on many levels .LOL Actually the same idiots tat would shoot your Herford bull or farm mascot brown goats with a HPR is already doing it or going to do it with a ML or shotgun or weapon we now use .And that is a fact!
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