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Post by realhunter on Jan 10, 2015 10:49:25 GMT -5
I was in Walmart the other day. Sabot slugs $9 to $13 for 5. 30-30 $16 for 20, 30-06 $19 for 20, 44 mag $42 for 50. Entry level HPR are about the same as most slugguns. Except for mag capacity I am all for it. If money is an issue, then buy a .44 Magnum. You can reload your shells for way under the $42/box price, and receive improved accuracy. So, spend close to $1000.00 for reloading equipment... it would only take 50 yrs to recoup the costs to reload for a single cartridge. Simply an invalid proposal for the average deer hunter.
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Post by firstwd on Jan 10, 2015 11:40:41 GMT -5
If money is an issue, then buy a .44 Magnum. You can reload your shells for way under the $42/box price, and receive improved accuracy. So, spend close to $1000.00 for reloading equipment... it would only take 50 yrs to recoup the costs to reload for a single cartridge. Simply an invalid proposal for the average deer hunter. I'm not sure the price is in range, but completely agree with idea not every hunter can reload.
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Post by dbd870 on Jan 10, 2015 12:57:13 GMT -5
You certainly don't have to spend that much to get started
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Post by esshup on Jan 10, 2015 23:56:09 GMT -5
Here's a comment that was made to me from a guy that I know in Missouri. I am going to be in Texas hog hunting culling, and he wanted to know if he could tag along.
FWIW, I have long range hunting/shooting equipment, practice, and have an idea of what can and cannot be done.
I know he has a scoped 30-06. I know he doesn't practice. I know that he missed a deer at a feeder in Texas at less than 100 yds. from an elevated box blind.
My comment to him was "I was told that the pigs have been feeding in a wheat field, and they are between 500 to 1,300 yds away from the box blind. I was told that they can't get any closer because there is no cover."
To paraphrase his comment - Well I can hold a foot over their back, right? The bullet shouldn't drop more than a foot at 600-700 yards.
*sigh*
FWIW, he's shooting factory 180g core-loc bullets.
The only reason that I posted that is because I think that shows that it's not the weapon that is being used, it's the operator that is uing the weapon. If he was hunting this year in Indiana, what's to prevent him from thinking that he can just hold over a deer at 300-400 yds with a slug gun and it'll drop right in?
It really doesn't matter what tool is used to hunt with, if a person doesn't know how to properly use the tool, then ANY tool won't be any good.
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Post by drs on Jan 11, 2015 5:33:53 GMT -5
If money is an issue, then buy a .44 Magnum. You can reload your shells for way under the $42/box price, and receive improved accuracy. So, spend close to $1000.00 for reloading equipment... it would only take 50 yrs to recoup the costs to reload for a single cartridge. Simply an invalid proposal for the average deer hunter.I first started reloading, realhunter, back in 1965. I started off using one of those "Lee Loader" sets that cost around $15 back then. A few years later (1968) I bought an RCBS Jr. reloading press + a set of 243 Dies for $39.00, which I still own today. I don't consider costs of reloading, but rather concentrating on "Accuracy". It is a great hobby and I save money by doing so. Also your average Deer Hunter should know about the cartridge he/her hunts with, and it's capability to take Deer.
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Post by drs on Jan 11, 2015 5:57:02 GMT -5
But YOU own that land where you raise cattle. Are you willing to allow other Hunters to Deer Hunt on that land with HPRs??? Before moving to Kentucky; I hunted on a farm where they also raised cattle near the Glendale F&W Area. The landowner once told me over the years he had six head of cattle shot by Hunters Trespassing on his land, during Deer Season, and this was in the days when Shotgun Slugs & M/L were only allowed. Can you imagine what could happen when HPR are legalized (?) You can now use PCR's & Wildcat cartridges with an overall length of 1.8" and .357" and up in caliber. Again, I ask what is wrong with just allowing .44 Magnums, .460 S&W, and other such cartridges, plus various wildcat cartridges for Deer Hunting?? Indiana is too flat and highly populated in most parts of the state and chances are the population will grow bringing on Urban Sprawl. Actually my land is already hunter surrounded by HPR and ML / Shot gunners we been fine for over 100 years a3 generations there with live stock crops and hunters .Truth is this is not PA or WI or MI with 1,000,000 to 2,000,000 hunters and hunters tend to hunt where the deer are and less people are .Urban zones withstanding . Truth is there is no such thing as too flat ....You ever hunt Nebraska ,MT WY on the plains area ?? Or been in parts of MI that looks like an Ironing board and yes there are house and farms everywhere in those places and there are woods and As stated you do not want them so I would leave it at that .Your reasons right now are mostly just personal feelings on this DRS . FYI we have thousands and thousands of Groundhog hunters and Coyote hunters shooting very flat shooting HPS every year as a matter of a fact I saw two just this morning in one of the more human populated counties here they were not shooting at the houses around that field and woods . .This is no big deal especially since we have very few hunters compared to most states that have millions of hunters that us HPRs every year . You need to go hunt some of those states some more its a very educational experience on many levels .LOL Actually the same idiots tat would shoot your Herford bull or farm mascot brown goats with a HPR is already doing it or going to do it with a ML or shotgun or weapon we now use .And that is a fact! You didn't say your land dominated by Hunters is located in Indiana, but I am assuming it is. Also I thought Indiana closed Deer Season 100 years ago, only opening it up back in the 1950's so your generation of Hunters must have been hunting another species of game. Reasons why "Flat" States like Nebraska allows HPR is due to their "Human" population being less concentrated unlike Indiana's. In Michigan, they can only use HPR in the upper regions of their State. Also, I might add there are far fewer "Groundhog" or "Coyotes" Hunters when compared to Deer Hunters, unless you can show me some facts and figures concerning this. Also, I should add I have nothing personal for or against the use of High Powered rifles, when used in proper and safe areas. I can use them here in Ky and do because the laws say I can and it's far safer than in most parts of Indiana. So you accusing me of being somewhat "Anti-HPR" is uncalled for. Why can't you and others here be content with using what is now legal equipment in Indiana now. Why is it so important for you to use a .308 or .270 to hunt Deer with in Indiana (?) I don't really see the attraction. You have the .44 Magnum and other similar cartridges plus some wildcats that are 1.8" & .357" & up, so I suggest you look into using one of these LEGAL cartridges. It sounds like YOU are expressing "personal feelings" on this subject at hand.
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Post by beehunter on Jan 11, 2015 8:23:24 GMT -5
I am sorry but about everything I have read here on this subject is personal feelings. Everyone has an opinion and they think its the correct one come heck or high water.
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Post by realhunter on Jan 11, 2015 9:58:23 GMT -5
So, spend close to $1000.00 for reloading equipment... it would only take 50 yrs to recoup the costs to reload for a single cartridge. Simply an invalid proposal for the average deer hunter. I first started reloading, realhunter, back in 1965. I started off using one of those "Lee Loader" sets that cost around $15 back then. A few years later (1968) I bought an RCBS Jr. reloading press + a set of 243 Dies for $39.00, which I still own today. I don't consider costs of reloading, but rather concentrating on "Accuracy". It is a great hobby and I save money by doing so. Also your average Deer Hunter should know about the cartridge he/her hunts with, and it's capability to take Deer. drs... yeah, reloading... I've dabbled with it for awhile. While you don't need to spend 1000.00 as I stated, my guess is that most will; once they get into the hobby To elaborate on a hunter knowing the cartridge he or she hunts with... my guess is that anyone who studied their shotgun ballistics, muzzleloader ballistics, & PCR ballistics & compared those to modern rifle cartridges, they would drop them like a hot potato & pick up a rifle for its clear advantages...
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Post by shouldernuke on Jan 11, 2015 9:58:37 GMT -5
Actually my land is already hunter surrounded by HPR and ML / Shot gunners we been fine for over 100 years a3 generations there with live stock crops and hunters .Truth is this is not PA or WI or MI with 1,000,000 to 2,000,000 hunters and hunters tend to hunt where the deer are and less people are .Urban zones withstanding . Truth is there is no such thing as too flat ....You ever hunt Nebraska ,MT WY on the plains area ?? Or been in parts of MI that looks like an Ironing board and yes there are house and farms everywhere in those places and there are woods and As stated you do not want them so I would leave it at that .Your reasons right now are mostly just personal feelings on this DRS . FYI we have thousands and thousands of Groundhog hunters and Coyote hunters shooting very flat shooting HPS every year as a matter of a fact I saw two just this morning in one of the more human populated counties here they were not shooting at the houses around that field and woods . .This is no big deal especially since we have very few hunters compared to most states that have millions of hunters that us HPRs every year . You need to go hunt some of those states some more its a very educational experience on many levels .LOL Actually the same idiots tat would shoot your Herford bull or farm mascot brown goats with a HPR is already doing it or going to do it with a ML or shotgun or weapon we now use .And that is a fact! You didn't say your land dominated by Hunters is located in Indiana, but I am assuming it is. Also I thought Indiana closed Deer Season 100 years ago, only opening it up back in the 1950's so your generation of Hunters must have been hunting another species of game. Reasons why "Flat" States like Nebraska allows HPR is due to their "Human" population being less concentrated unlike Indiana's. In Michigan, they can only use HPR in the upper regions of their State. Also, I might add there are far fewer "Groundhog" or "Coyotes" Hunters when compared to Deer Hunters, unless you can show me some facts and figures concerning this. Also, I should add I have nothing personal for or against the use of High Powered rifles, when used in proper and safe areas. I can use them here in Ky and do because the laws say I can and it's far safer than in most parts of Indiana. So you accusing me of being somewhat "Anti-HPR" is uncalled for. Why can't you and others here be content with using what is now legal equipment in Indiana now. Why is it so important for you to use a .308 or .270 to hunt Deer with in Indiana (?) I don't really see the attraction. You have the .44 Magnum and other similar cartridges plus some wildcats that are 1.8" & .357" & up, so I suggest you look into using one of these LEGAL cartridges. It sounds like YOU are expressing "personal feelings" on this subject at hand.I am very awear when we got deer here in IN and where they were released the whole story I do not need schooled on it I am almost as old as you are and Likely hunted almost as long . FYI we did not have Deer here in my county till the early mid 1970s .And the deer we had migrated here from the Winamac release herd first not the southern IN release herd they were slower to arrive because they were quite farther from here compared to the Winamac herd . The point I was making that in over 100 years of my family owning that land and running live stock there we never once ever had a single animal shot or building with holes in it . And Yes the farm that is now left to me is in Indiana . As a matter of a fact in wide open flat farm country mid north IN. You know the actual farming belt here in our state .I saw my first deer here when I was entering high school. We were killing dozens and dozens of ground hogs all spring and early summer for recreation over those flat bean fields and along the inter-urban and ditches here with houses and farms everywhere we never once saw or heard of a single cow death or house struck from it. And we were using 243s ,25-06s and 6 mils all day my man. Heck the neighborhood farmers would pay us per ground hog tail we brought them up to 2 bucks each for over a decade up here when I was younger .One year alone we (5 shooters in one group ) fired over 500 rounds of HP in my home county between 5 of us we killed 396 whistle pigs .No one died, the barns are in tact the cows gave milk LOL all the locals never even blinked about it even the brown goats down the road lived . On a second note we had other game here for the last 100 years long before I was even a thought in my grandfathers mind other than Deer! Varmints,fox , even upland game birds prior to the Winters of 77,78 ,79 ,and 82 put the nail in their coffin up here and all but whipped them out up here .This year alone there were literally 18 hunters that hunt land around our farm that hunt deer and other animals and the 3 of us on the farm . It all shook out I know for a fact 3 of them have the Hoosier HPR guns now and one hunts right on the fence line by our main pasture .Yip still have all the live stock and windows are in place. Plus we have used HPRs up here all along to kill ground hogs and varmints for the 100 years that farm has been in my families last name. Heck I remember Grand-paw had a old Mouser setting just inside the barn door he would throw on the Tractor or pull out on occasion to take vermin here. now over the last Decade when the HPRs/Pistol laws came out deer. Your theory about population and flat land is just that a theory .We live in exactly the places you are talking about where it should be unsafe .So fact is its not and its all in the hunters that hunt hand no matter the weapon a house ,cow, or barn shooting moron will do it with whatever they carry . Seriously buddy You need to live somewhere before you know what really takes place every day of the year. And now every Tom ,Dick and Harry with a AR that hunts is slinging lead at Coyotes most the winter here already .Still Much ADUE about nothing. Why is it important to use a 270 or 308 ? Do you ever look at the rather wimpy ballistics of the 44 mag compared to those or real Deer rifles .The Knock down of a PCR round or ML is not even close to the shear accuracy and knockdown a 270 ,308 or 30-06 .Sorry That's why its about time to pull Indiana out of the stone age like most the other deer states have done. I see the attraction of a knockdown punch accuracy .You really should do some ballistic comparisons some time just look at the foot pounds energy is all you have to look at it will tell you what the attraction is. And yes we bought and used the 44s killed 5 bucks between me and my sons with them every one was at least 50 to 150 yard tracks and they were shot in the chest and they are far inferior in knock down to even a ML or 20 ga punkin ball .A little more accurate but that's it. UI have hunted out of state extensively with HPRs and even out to 250 yards never had game run more than a few yards when hit in the chest and or shoulder and I have several on film just falling down or stumbling a few yards and crashing hard .Cant say that about the ML and PCR rounds much at 100 yards we have to use .On a side note most my kills outside WY have been at or less than 100 yards with HPRs. WY is a different animal and you better be able to shoot long range on any given day.
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Post by throbak on Jan 11, 2015 10:12:00 GMT -5
I don't have the time to do it right now but while we are on history WHY AND FOR WHAT REASON WERE HPR,S DEVELOPED more killing power to hold more rounds EXTENDED RANGE why find out this and I might understand the need for them when every thing we have now seems to be working we have made adjustments for technology IE long bow to re curve to compound to crossbow all the same with the same range MZL to inline basically the same but when we open up hpr to everyone thats a whole new ball game even with the wildcats expense and availability restricts their presence but with hpr get the point
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Post by shouldernuke on Jan 11, 2015 10:12:16 GMT -5
I first started reloading, realhunter, back in 1965. I started off using one of those "Lee Loader" sets that cost around $15 back then. A few years later (1968) I bought an RCBS Jr. reloading press + a set of 243 Dies for $39.00, which I still own today. I don't consider costs of reloading, but rather concentrating on "Accuracy". It is a great hobby and I save money by doing so. Also your average Deer Hunter should know about the cartridge he/her hunts with, and it's capability to take Deer. drs... yeah, reloading... I've dabbled with it for awhile. While you don't need to spend 1000.00 as I stated, my guess is that most will; once they get into the hobby To elaborate on a hunter knowing the cartridge he or she hunts with... my guess is that anyone who studied their shotgun ballistics, muzzleloader ballistics, & PCR ballistics & compared those to modern rifle cartridges, they would drop them like a hot potato & pick up a rifle for its clear advantages... Bingo that right here is the Attraction and up side hard hitting projectiles and watching deer fall in their tracks with pin point accuracy !
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Post by drs on Jan 11, 2015 11:47:41 GMT -5
I've used my Ruger Model 77/44 Mag. here in Kentucky as well as in Indiana (2007 when it became legal). I've never lost a Deer using it, in fact I once killed two Deer with ONE SHOT @ 60 yards. The 240 grain Hornady XTP bullet went through the larger Deer and through the smaller Deer that was beside her. Indiana is not going to be handicapped by using what is legal today and if you don't like the ballistics of the .44 Remington Magnum you can always switch over to the 460 S&W as it's a more powerful round.
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Post by swilk on Jan 11, 2015 12:23:04 GMT -5
Nuke - how does the knockdown of my mz compare to those rifles you listed? 300gr .458 Barnes original going 2500 or so. I can turn it up a but if I want to but its a dead hold out to 240 so I don't feel the need. It'll shoot right around MOA too. I get your point but there are most definitely exceptions to the point you are trying to make.
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Post by realhunter on Jan 11, 2015 12:25:57 GMT -5
I've used my Ruger Model 77/44 Mag. here in Kentucky as well as in Indiana (2007 when it became legal). I've never lost a Deer using it, in fact I once killed two Deer with ONE SHOT @ 60 yards. The 240 grain Hornady XTP bullet went through the larger Deer and through the smaller Deer that was beside her. Indiana is not going to be handicapped by using what is legal today and if you don't like the ballistics of the .44 Remington Magnum you can always switch over to the 460 S&W as it's a more powerful round. 460 308 Looks like 460 is a poor choice... IMHO
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Post by shouldernuke on Jan 11, 2015 13:27:26 GMT -5
Nuke - how does the knockdown of my mz compare to those rifles you listed? 300gr .458 Barnes original going 2500 or so. I can turn it up a but if I want to but its a dead hold out to 240 so I don't feel the need. It'll shoot right around MOA too. I get your point but there are most definitely exceptions to the point you are trying to make. You asked and your not quite MOA with your specs as stated your projectile is starting 1.5 in low below site in but with site in dead on at 100 this is your specs most can not push 300 gr loads out at 2500 FPS that would take a PYRO or like powder or max load of smokeless in a gun that can handle that by manufactures specs .None the less ' Here is your stats and its not dead hold if you are zeroed at 100 you will fall almost 6 inches at that yardage .I am sure you are sited at 150 dead on or you would b too high under 100 to aprox 50 yards . Energy is there but its still relatively short range weapon with aprox 6 inches fall at 250 yards with 1.5 rise below site in at start.That is where most HPRs are zeroed and rarely have 2 inches fall from under zero to that point .And yes you get my point and yours the ballistics tell the real truth an HPR with good load will always out preform any thing we traditionally use here with ease. I am kinda a ballistics gun guy .I too reload .Got one heck of a 125 gr load made up for them yotes and a 180gr 8mm load that's a hammer as well Ballistics Results - .458 HP Range ,Velocity (fps) Energy (ft.-lb.) Trajectory (in) Muzzle..2500...........4163............-1.5 100.....2393...........3814............ 0 200.....2289...........3489............-4.6 300.....2187...........3185............-15.8 400.....2088...........2903............-34.3 500.....1991...........2641............-60.8
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Post by steve46511 on Jan 11, 2015 13:58:15 GMT -5
I don't know what BC you were using in your calculations but the Barnes Original 300 grain .458 has a BC of .291. 2500 fps with a plus or minus 3 inches of trajectory to 236 yards is a 202 yard zero.......and KE isn't anywhere near your numbers stated ......anywhere. here is another trajectory/energy chart with the same bullet at 2300 fps too randywakeman.com/UpdateBarnesOriginalSpitzerSoft-Point300grain.htmNO offense meant but.....2641 foot lbs at 500 yards?
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Post by shouldernuke on Jan 11, 2015 14:01:44 GMT -5
I don't know what BC you were using in your calculations but the Barnes Original 300 grain .458 has a BC of .291. 2500 fps with a plus or minus 3 inches of trajectory to 236 yards is a 202 yard zero.......and KE isn't anywhere near your numbers stated at long range. AND here is another trajectory/energy chart with the same bullet at 2300 fps too randywakeman.com/UpdateBarnesOriginalSpitzerSoft-Point300grain.htmNO offense meant but.....2641 foot lbs at 500 yards? Hornady BC I could of poked the or left out a number in the BC Looks like I dropped the 2 in the .2 and loaded at .91 lol
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Post by swilk on Jan 11, 2015 14:02:05 GMT -5
200 yard zero. No higher than 3" and no lower than 3" out to 240. 12" drop at 300.
1900lbft of energy at 300.
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Post by shouldernuke on Jan 11, 2015 14:03:17 GMT -5
200 yard zero. No higher than 3" and no lower than 3" out to 240. 12" drop at 300. 1900lbft of energy at 300. swilk cant get those numbers at that zero at 200 you will at one point 4-5 inches high/low below 200 from line of bbl; as shown its almost 4 low at 300 by the bc Regardless still you are one of the few who load or shoot with that sort projectile here and results .Most are lucky to hit the target with what they shoot at 200 yards !!
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Post by swilk on Jan 11, 2015 14:10:42 GMT -5
Really?
What does your calculator tell you when you enter the numbers correctly? I know what mine says and its verified at the range....
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