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Post by drs on Feb 23, 2015 11:11:46 GMT -5
I agree about canned hunting, HOWEVER, the hunting preserves in Indiana are not canned hunting. Your analogy is like calling all sportsmen poachers. Huge difference. I never said that ALL sportsmen/women are poachers. The ones that break the laws are; but placing honest law abiding Sportsmen at their level is incorrect. No matter how "pretty you paint Canned Hunting it's still unethical form of hunting. <Period>
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Post by drs on Feb 23, 2015 11:15:06 GMT -5
Hunterman - You seem very knowledgeable about this topic. Do you own or work at a hunting preserve? It sure sounds like he does, the way he defends Canned Hunts.
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Post by Woody Williams on Feb 23, 2015 11:15:50 GMT -5
I agree about canned hunting, HOWEVER, the hunting preserves in Indiana are not canned hunting. Your analogy is like calling all sportsmen poachers. Huge difference. Define "canned hunting", please.. TY
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Post by lawrencecountyhunter on Feb 23, 2015 11:28:37 GMT -5
Hunterman - You seem very knowledgeable about this topic. Do you own or work at a hunting preserve? It sure sounds like he does, the way he defends Canned Hunts. I'm not meaning it as an attack or anything, just want to understand where he's coming from.
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Post by hunterman on Feb 23, 2015 11:46:40 GMT -5
Lch- you could say that. In 40 yrs of hunting here and all over the world I have seen it all, the best and the worst the hunting industry has to offer. The worst is when sportsmen turn on sportsmen. There are many forms of legal hunting I find unethical and unsporting. Baiting, hunting with dogs and killing deer under three years old are all things I wish personally were not allowed, however who am I to force those views on others since those methods are legal and enjoyed by a lot of sportsmen, same goes with high fence hunting.
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Post by lawrencecountyhunter on Feb 23, 2015 11:51:34 GMT -5
Lch- you could say that. In 40 yrs of hunting here and all over the world I have seen it all, the best and the worst the hunting industry has to offer. The worst is when sportsmen turn on sportsmen. There are many forms of legal hunting I find unethical and unsporting. Baiting, hunting with dogs and killing deer under three years old are all things I wish personally were not allowed, however who am I to force those views on others since those methods are legal and enjoyed by a lot of sportsmen, same goes with high fence hunting. Thanks
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Post by hunterman on Feb 23, 2015 11:53:56 GMT -5
Canned hunts happen in the wild and behind fence. For example, if an animal does not have the chance or intelligence to escape or evades hunter its canned hunting. If a preserve uses the fence to kill the deer then its canned hunting, if you kill a deer under 18 months old in the wild its canned hunting. Those deer in the wild are not smart/mature enough to evade so its simply killing not hunting. There are hunts on preserves far more ethical than killing all those immature deer we kill in Indiana, over 80% are under 18 months old. Thats shamefull, I understand its all about management but we certainly cant call it hunting just as some of those poorly run preserves do not honor and respect the rules of fair chase.
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Post by lawrencecountyhunter on Feb 23, 2015 12:16:29 GMT -5
www.wdrb.com/story/23604061/judge-over-steps-dnrsI don't have any idea what the average "acres per deer" is in southern Indiana, but I'm sure the vast majority of deer utilize a range much larger than this. Also, I wonder how many hunters are in the enclosure at any given time.. Sure sounds like "canned" shooting to me.
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Post by drs on Feb 23, 2015 13:10:25 GMT -5
www.wdrb.com/story/23604061/judge-over-steps-dnrsI don't have any idea what the average "acres per deer" is in southern Indiana, but I'm sure the vast majority of deer utilize a range much larger than this. Also, I wonder how many hunters are in the enclosure at any given time.. Sure sounds like "canned" shooting to me. Here's the most dumb & redundant statement made by an owner of a "Canned Hunt" facility: "People have this perception that you are hunting in something the size of a football field," said Bruce. "We don't use the fence as a tool to kill an animal, we use it as a management tool."A fenced in area is NOT a wildlife management tool !! It's designed for only for SHOOTING, not sport hunting. This set-up having 60 or more Deer in an area of 120 acres is like "shooting Fish-in-a-barrel".
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Post by hornzilla on Feb 23, 2015 13:50:44 GMT -5
Canned hunts happen in the wild and behind fence. For example, if an animal does not have the chance or intelligence to escape or evades hunter its canned hunting. If a preserve uses the fence to kill the deer then its canned hunting, if you kill a deer under 18 months old in the wild its canned hunting. Those deer in the wild are not smart/mature enough to evade so its simply killing not hunting. There are hunts on preserves far more ethical than killing all those immature deer we kill in Indiana, over 80% are under 18 months old. Thats shamefull, I understand its all about management but we certainly cant call it hunting just as some of those poorly run preserves do not honor and respect the rules of fair chase. Lol
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Post by Woody Williams on Feb 23, 2015 14:32:38 GMT -5
Interesting, but perplexing answer..Canned hunts happen in the wild and behind fence. The only "canned hunting" can see in the wild would be deer trapped by a natural barrier. Those are few and far between in the wild. Even island deer can swim off.For example, if an animal does not have the chance or intelligence to escape or evades hunter its canned hunting. Agree on the "does not have a chance to escape or evade a hunter", But you are really stretching it on the age of a deer. Sure it is easier to kill a younger deer, but canned? No, not in this world. Only in the mind of someone who is trying to justify fenced in hunting..
If a preserve uses the fence to kill the deer then its canned hunting, Does not the outside fence keep the deer from "escaping"? In your definition of "does not have a chance to escape or evade a hunter" that would apply. How about cross fencing to keep the money bucks separate?....if you kill a deer under 18 months old in the wild its canned hunting. Those deer in the wild are not smart/mature enough to evade so its simply killing not hunting. There are hunts on preserves far more ethical than killing all those immature deer we kill in Indiana, over 80% are under 18 months old. Thats shamefull, I understand its all about management but we certainly cant call it hunting just as some of those poorly run preserves do not honor and respect the rules of fair chase. See above.. I don't think there is a hunter alive that has hunted very long that has not been busted by a yearling deer more than once. Now let's talk about the 60 deer in a 120 acres of fenced property. Since these places have certain deer that is open to any shooter and certain deer that are for the high rollers is that acreage cross fenced in any way to separate the average bucks from the $10,000+ bucks? That cross fence makes it more escape proof, does it not? That is at least two deer per acre, without cross fencing. How does one go about calling that as "fair chase" and ethical? 120 acres of habitat will not support 60 deer without supplemental feeding/baiting. The question then becomes - Are any stands in place close to these feeder/bait stations? Are there any stands close to trails leading to and from these feeding/bait stations? I find that hard to believe that all stands are a considerable distance for any feeders/bait stations or trails leading to them considering there is only 120 acres to work with. Then, are the deer acclimated to come to these feeding/bait stations at certain times? Do the deer know when the farm truck comes out with the feed that it is time to go eat? Are the deer human acclimated? Were they bottle fed as fawns?
You're not convincing very many folks here. I'm sorry but to me 120 acres will not qualify and "far chase" or "ethical"..
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Post by throbak on Feb 23, 2015 14:55:51 GMT -5
Hunterman your wasting you time trying to convince ME and Hopefully every one else one this site the need for, the sportsmanship involved and the very Idea that I would play both sides of the fence when it comes to canned hunting there is nothing sportsman like connected to paying for a particular deer inside a fence and Killing it and no one here I hope is worried about whether they have to use a licence or not that is a non issue ITS NOT HUNTING also to some others Politics is very much a part of the hunting scene Like it or not , Give it up Hunterman you are a embarrassment to me to think you even consider me a hunter same as you I am not never will be these killing pens are no different than pay lakes they are both despicable forms of perverted entertainment with a natural resource legal or not
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Post by swilk on Feb 23, 2015 15:03:23 GMT -5
Of course a fenced in area can be used as a management tool .... there are ranches in texas and other places big enough a deer might live its whole life without ever seeing the fence.
There is no easy answer to this one .... as far as the whole size and ethics and all that stuff goes.
1 deer inside a 120 acre fenced in area that is 10 year old WRP/CRP would be very different than 60 deer inside 120 acres consisting of crop land and mature timber.
What is canned hunting? I cant define it to match every situation but to paraphrase Justice Stewart ... I know it when I see it.
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Post by lawrencecountyhunter on Feb 23, 2015 15:13:57 GMT -5
Bruce also has elk and exotics.. not sure if they live on the same 120 acres or not. Maybe they are specially ordered in?
As far as preserve size, the places in texas might be several thousand acres, but they are still used to keep the deer from dispersing, thus increasing the deer/acreage ratio and making it easier to get one. Also, they keep deer with inferior genes from getting in and breeding the does, which would dilute the trophy potential. Still not what I would consider fair chase or free range, but we are certainly talking about varying degrees of captivity.
I figure everyone can draw their own conclusion on what's ethical..
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Post by swilk on Feb 23, 2015 15:21:16 GMT -5
I am not even remotely calling it fair chase or free range .... just that I think you can have a fence and it not be "canned" hunting. I think a person could reasonably call certain enclosure "high fence hunting".
Its not fair chase hunting. Its not canned hunting. Its high fence hunting.
King ranch is what ... 825,000 acres? More than twice the size of Knox county Indiana. Size matters in this discussion.
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Post by lawrencecountyhunter on Feb 23, 2015 15:38:54 GMT -5
I am not even remotely calling it fair chase or free range .... just that I think you can have a fence and it not be "canned" hunting. I think a person could reasonably call certain enclosure "high fence hunting". Its not fair chase hunting. Its not canned hunting. Its high fence hunting. King ranch is what ... 825,000 acres? More than twice the size of Knox county Indiana. Size matters in this discussion. Agreed.. My post was not meant to be directed solely at yours. Like you pointed out with your 1 deer/CRP example, "canned" is tough to define. I was trying to make the point that a fence is meant to make it easier to kill big deer, regardless of enclosure size. If they didn't, nonone would spend the money on the fences.
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Post by hunterman on Feb 23, 2015 15:56:49 GMT -5
Some of you guys are stating "opinion" not facts which is fine. You are assuming your opinions of hunting preserves to be true when it fact they are not even close and that makes your argument fall short. The fact is anybody real hunter over 6 years old can kill a deer in the wild under 18 months old, day after day. I see this first hand and know it to be fact, no opinion or guessing. If you find any challenge or ethics beyond herd management in killing 18 month old deer you are in the same category as the canned hunters. This basically come down to jealousy, you guys line up for a chance to hunt the high fence government facilities because the fence is used to control the hunting pressure and deer are allowed to mature and get bigger. Again that is a fact. If the hunting preserves offered free hunts 95% of sportsmen would line up.
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Post by swilk on Feb 23, 2015 15:59:11 GMT -5
I could kind of see your point of view in many of your earlier posts but that last one is pretty much off the rails.
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Post by lawrencecountyhunter on Feb 23, 2015 16:10:53 GMT -5
I don't know exactly what the success rate was at Crane this year (which is not high-fence), but I do know it was very low. I wonder when the last time was someone didn't get a shot opportunity at Whitetail Bluffs?
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Post by Woody Williams on Feb 23, 2015 16:39:09 GMT -5
Adress my post and forget about the killing young deer is the same as canned hunting. These folks on here are deer hunters and aren't buying it..
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