|
Post by Russ Koon on Mar 28, 2015 12:07:53 GMT -5
Yep, that's one of the reasons I have proposed allowing baiting here for several years now.
Those who want to use it and don't mind breaking the law find it very easy to get away with, and so, like other largely unenforceable laws, the law against baiting only really affects the hunter who wants very much to remain legal but finds himself needing the attractant to draw deer to his limited hunting area.
In the process, it empowers the anti's and others who would prefer to sabotage the efforts of the legal hunter on a smaller plot by making that plot vulnerable to tossing a few ears of corn over the fence and then calling the law. An unenforceable law usually ends up creating the worst result possible, restricting only the law-abiding while being pretty useless in preventing the lawbreakers from business as usual. Good intentions are nice, but they don't necessarily make good laws.
I also believe the situation has changed over the years. As available hunting ground has become smaller in plot size, leased up, or open to the public only in areas where access is limited to the able bodied, more and more older hunters are being squeezed out of the activity by the competition for a place to have some reasonable chance at taking a deer. The baiting option on a smaller plot size near a road or in an area where the hunter can arrange for his use of an ATV, would increase the opportunity for those hunters without harming the opportunities for the more able or younger hunters.
I think the time has come to allow the legal hunter one of the options so often used by the poachers.
|
|
|
Post by tynimiller on Mar 29, 2015 14:10:23 GMT -5
Yep, that's one of the reasons I have proposed allowing baiting here for several years now. Those who want to use it and don't mind breaking the law find it very easy to get away with, and so, like other largely unenforceable laws, the law against baiting only really affects the hunter who wants very much to remain legal but finds himself needing the attractant to draw deer to his limited hunting area. In the process, it empowers the anti's and others who would prefer to sabotage the efforts of the legal hunter on a smaller plot by making that plot vulnerable to tossing a few ears of corn over the fence and then calling the law. An unenforceable law usually ends up creating the worst result possible, restricting only the law-abiding while being pretty useless in preventing the lawbreakers from business as usual. Good intentions are nice, but they don't necessarily make good laws. I also believe the situation has changed over the years. As available hunting ground has become smaller in plot size, leased up, or open to the public only in areas where access is limited to the able bodied, more and more older hunters are being squeezed out of the activity by the competition for a place to have some reasonable chance at taking a deer. The baiting option on a smaller plot size near a road or in an area where the hunter can arrange for his use of an ATV, would increase the opportunity for those hunters without harming the opportunities for the more able or younger hunters. I think the time has come to allow the legal hunter one of the options so often used by the poachers. I hear and understand that, truly I do. However, my beef with baiting is the ease of hunting it causes....slowly we are raising a generation of killers not necessarily hunters....and your last statement makes that point 100%. If it is a method of "hunting" utilized by poachers, then of course it is of a lower "class" and personally doesn't belong in our woods unless I guess you accompany it with some rather stiff regulations. A lot of my friends that live in states with baiting all say they'd embrace stiffer laws regarding it or elimination of it (not mineral though). It is an argument I know is a failing one, so if the discussion raises (which I think it will) I will simply hope it is with some regulations.
|
|
|
Post by salt on Mar 29, 2015 17:33:33 GMT -5
It is a different group of people going to the woods. A different generation. A generation that have electronic devices in their hands day and night. A generation that is expected to be more committed to extracurricular activities than past generations. A generation that is expected to do more and work harder in the classroom. So, as times change we need to be willing to adapt too. All I am saying is it's a lot easier to get my kids off the couch if they feel that their is a good chance to be successful. Otherwise they will just stay in their warm room with their IPod/iPad/X box etc. Is a law change allowing baiting going to make a difference? Probably not a big one. But then again, we were worried that crossbows were going to destroy the sport. Instead, it has grown interest.
|
|
|
Post by trophyparadise on Mar 29, 2015 17:54:54 GMT -5
It is a different group of people going to the woods. A different generation. A generation that have electronic devices in their hands day and night. A generation that is expected to be more committed to extracurricular activities than past generations. A generation that is expected to do more and work harder in the classroom. So, as times change we need to be willing to adapt too. All I am saying is it's a lot easier to get my kids off the couch if they feel that their is a good chance to be successful. Otherwise they will just stay in their warm room with their IPod/iPad/X box etc. Is a law change allowing baiting going to make a difference? Probably not a big one. But then again, we were worried that crossbows were going to destroy the sport. Instead, it has grown interest. Exactly! As hunters we should be promoting new ways to draw future generations, not trying to regulate and restrict them. Trophy Paradise Habitat Consulting "Trophies are built from the ground up" www.facebook.com/trophyparadise
|
|
|
Post by tynimiller on Mar 30, 2015 11:41:19 GMT -5
Okay let's allow night hunting, spotlighting and infrared devices. I in no way am comparing them, as even I see the stretch in such a statement...however I do fear I could use the exact same arguments you are stating for baiting for those things.
I for one have no doubt if we introduce youth to the woods/outdoors prior to technology (on a personal level) the love and desire for the outdoors will be fueled. Perhaps I'm delusional.
|
|
|
Post by Jamie Brooks 1John5:13 on Mar 30, 2015 13:18:15 GMT -5
I can't plant a food plot at this time, so I can't bait, but if I could I would. I think it's just a question of what kind of baiting is legal and where ...and what really is the difference, a bait is a bait.
No one is saying that a hardcore hunter must bait. They are free to strip naked and stalk them with a long bow.
|
|
|
Post by tynimiller on Mar 30, 2015 13:27:08 GMT -5
I can't plant a food plot at this time, so I can't bait, but if I could I would. I think it's just a question of what kind of baiting is legal and where ...and what really is the difference, a bait is a bait. No one is saying that a hardcore hunter must bait. They are free to strip naked and stalk them with a long bow. I wouldn't bait personally even if passed, fairly confident in that. However, bait is bait...but a food plot isn't bait. The only thing they have in common is both provide food....that is where the similarities stop though.
|
|
|
Post by Jamie Brooks 1John5:13 on Mar 30, 2015 14:03:11 GMT -5
I can't plant a food plot at this time, so I can't bait, but if I could I would. I think it's just a question of what kind of baiting is legal and where ...and what really is the difference, a bait is a bait. No one is saying that a hardcore hunter must bait. They are free to strip naked and stalk them with a long bow. I wouldn't bait personally even if passed, fairly confident in that. However, bait is bait...but a food plot isn't bait. The only thing they have in common is both provide food....that is where the similarities stop though. Help me understand the difference, because I really don't see it. I'm still new to all this and haven't seen it differently.
|
|
|
Post by tynimiller on Mar 30, 2015 14:40:36 GMT -5
I sense bait (pun intended haha) but honestly the amount of money someone would have to exert to make a food plot no different then a bait station is far more than MOST are willing to do. A bait pile is a highly concentrated and almost always tiny spot where food is placed...typically not taking up more than say a 5x5 foot area. This is a very precise spot the deer must come to in order to get the food source....making them highly predictable.
Furthermore, bait can be control when it is delivered (cheap batter powered feeders or simply by hunter application). After season my father throws all the extra apples from the local school in the woods.....it is amazing how quickly the deer have learned this time period and know that if they hear him to come soon or they'll all be gone. The exact same thing can be done with baiting.
A food plot has no time limit on it, and often times unless a lot of security habitat work is done or very little pressure is felt the deer will simply go to the food source under the cover of darkness if they desire to go....and they have a much larger (less predictable) spot they can enter and feed on. Also food plots desirability and palatabiliity change depending on the time of the year, weather and seed type. Plots are not anywhere close to as predictable or dependable as simply having corn dispensed or carried in on a consistent basis.
*granted big mature bucks "typically" will not go to eiter unless they feel safe...
|
|
|
Post by Jamie Brooks 1John5:13 on Mar 30, 2015 15:33:29 GMT -5
So baiting will draw them more easily than a food plot?
I wouldn't think affordability should be a factor to support either. I did feed my deer all year, and was pricey. Mostly I fed raccoon. However, in the 10 day waiting period before hunting season, they found another place to go. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if I paid more for "bait" than I would a plot with greater benefit. There may come a day when I can put in a food plot and would really enjoy watching anything that came in to feed, but hope raccoon go some place else.
I'm thinking if I strip naked and use a long bow over bait, I'd still feel like a hardcore hunter. :-)
|
|
|
Post by trophyparadise on Mar 30, 2015 16:55:07 GMT -5
Bait sites do not make deer any easier to kill than food plots do. GrAnted, I'd much rather sit over a food plot than a bait pile. But for most (not all) they are both used for the same purpose....too attract deer to your hunting area and increase your chances of shooting one. The only real difference is with food plots, there are many additional benefits in addition to attraction. As far as a deer is concerned..corn is corn....doesnt matter if its in a field or came out of a bag. I really doubt I would bait if given the option either, but I don't believe allowing it would make that much of an impact. One could argue that guys who hunt in areas with lots of agriculture have an unfair advantage over hunters in areas with very little. Trophy Paradise Habitat Consulting "Trophies are built from the ground up" www.facebook.com/trophyparadise
|
|
|
Post by Jamie Brooks 1John5:13 on Mar 30, 2015 17:14:05 GMT -5
Bait sites do not make deer any easier to kill than food plots do. GrAnted, I'd much rather sit over a food plot than a bait pile. But for most (not all) they are both used for the same purpose....too attract deer to your hunting area and increase your chances of shooting one. The only real difference is with food plots, there are many additional benefits in addition to attraction. As far as a deer is concerned..corn is corn....doesnt matter if its in a field or came out of a bag. I really doubt I would bait if given the option either, but I don't believe allowing it would make that much of an impact. One could argue that guys who hunt in areas with lots of agriculture have an unfair advantage over hunters in areas with very little. Trophy Paradise Habitat Consulting "Trophies are built from the ground up" www.facebook.com/trophyparadise...or hunters who are at the mercy of public land. Now, I'm not thinking that baiting would be good for public land, because someone would get shot for taking another guys spot. I'll sure bait if they let me and I would not feel less about it, BUT I admire the hardcore hunts with long bows in the nude. I'm really thinking it's more about attire or lack there of, and weapon ...you know, sharp pointy stick.
|
|
|
Post by salt on Mar 30, 2015 19:44:20 GMT -5
I have made many more food plots than I have bait piles. What I find interesting in what Mr. Miller said is the fact that a bait pile is much smaller than a good plot. I would agree with this statement. My mineral area in Ohio is probably about 15 ft by 15 ft due to seepage. My food plot is quite a bit larger. However, I have never made a food plot that I could not shoot a deer anywhere in the plot. Maybe others do? But I think most food plots are small enough areas that the deer can't hide out of range when they are grazing. Am I wrong?
|
|
|
Post by Woody Williams on Mar 30, 2015 20:32:20 GMT -5
My food plot is not wide. Any deer walking through it,end to end, will be in bow range. Deer can come out at one end or the other and feed and be way out of bow range, but well within .44 range...
|
|
|
Post by swilk on Mar 31, 2015 5:50:43 GMT -5
Out of bow range? Use the crossbow.
Out of crossbow range? Use the shotgun.
Out of shotgun range? Use the 358Hoosier.
Out of 358Hoosier range? Use (in the future) the 338 Lapua.
Out of 338 Lapua range? You might be hunting a different state.....
|
|
|
Post by tynimiller on Mar 31, 2015 7:36:43 GMT -5
So baiting will draw them more easily than a food plot? I wouldn't think affordability should be a factor to support either. I did feed my deer all year, and was pricey. Mostly I fed raccoon. However, in the 10 day waiting period before hunting season, they found another place to go. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if I paid more for "bait" than I would a plot with greater benefit. There may come a day when I can put in a food plot and would really enjoy watching anything that came in to feed, but hope raccoon go some place else. I'm thinking if I strip naked and use a long bow over bait, I'd still feel like a hardcore hunter. :-) Jon I would never say they'll draw them in easier...from my experience with post-season apples like I described (some corn is mixed with at times) and off of what my close friends state as well as hunting over bait a couple times in Kansas this year...I do 100% believe it makes them more predictable. This primarily due to the timing is 100% controlled by the hunter as to when the food is available. If you fed your deer all year like you stated and hunted you 100% broke the law Jon...
|
|
|
Post by tynimiller on Mar 31, 2015 7:42:36 GMT -5
**Alert this is my personal opinion and is not being stated or attempting at stating a fact**
I fear for the true hunting skills in our future generations. I'll admit I've succumbed to the trail camera era but the use of baiting, cams that alert your phones, higher and higher tech on bows and guns....it all points to the erosion of true woodsman skill and the ability to predict and hunt the deer. Just something I fear....soon hunting will be simply tossing on an orange hat, walking to a shed with a furnace (possibily even a TV), ringing a dinner bell (pound that bait bucket like always) and wait 10 minutes for the deer to come in and bam.
Just not hunting in my opinion....but that is the beauty of hunting I guess....I still feel that all these "shortcuts" will in fact not down as many mature bucks and the desire to study and hunt them will still be a huge part of the hunting community...
|
|
|
Post by Jamie Brooks 1John5:13 on Mar 31, 2015 8:32:59 GMT -5
So baiting will draw them more easily than a food plot? I wouldn't think affordability should be a factor to support either. I did feed my deer all year, and was pricey. Mostly I fed raccoon. However, in the 10 day waiting period before hunting season, they found another place to go. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if I paid more for "bait" than I would a plot with greater benefit. There may come a day when I can put in a food plot and would really enjoy watching anything that came in to feed, but hope raccoon go some place else. I'm thinking if I strip naked and use a long bow over bait, I'd still feel like a hardcore hunter. :-) Jon I would never say they'll draw them in easier...from my experience with post-season apples like I described (some corn is mixed with at times) and off of what my close friends state as well as hunting over bait a couple times in Kansas this year...I do 100% believe it makes them more predictable. This primarily due to the timing is 100% controlled by the hunter as to when the food is available. If you fed your deer all year like you stated and hunted you 100% broke the law Jon... Yes, in the absolute terms, all year would be illegal. As stated, I fed until 10 days before the start of the season. Didn't feed during the season even after hunting ...didn't want any suspicions. It's a big part of the year, and it was a lot of money. Don't think I broke any laws, and have no desire to. I don't have the strength to haul down the food anymore. It would be nice to have a food plot of bait; it is what it is. It's not a garden. My point is that affordability has nothing to do with it. What I REALLY think is that old time hunters don't like new hunters getting what was difficult for them to get. What is this to anyone. I don't care that people who can have a food plot have one. It's none of my business. I just do what I can. I can't even feed now, but it is what it is. If they legalize people hunting with drones and I can't afford one, what is it to me? Same cry was heard when crossbows were legalized. Maybe, long bow hunters complained about a compound. It will continue as long as hunters are human. I say, obey the hunting laws whatever they are. No one has to like it, but if the animal was legally harvested it is as precious to the individual as one who did hunt naked with a long bow. It's relative. I don't care in the slightest what anyone thinks about how, when, what I wear or what weapon I used as long as it was legal. It's all human nature. If my neighbor inherits 100 acres of prime hunting ground next to mine when I work for 40 years to get mine, what is it to me? It's the same concept. An old time hunter feels like he earned his trophy, because he scouted for 300 hours, sniffed out the dropping to know which field he's feeding in.... I'm happy for this fells. He should be proud, but don't complain when the law and technology changes to make it more inviting to the young and old. I'm going to shoot one from a vehicle this year. I'll be warm and take naps, but it will mean just as much to me as the one that was difficult to get. It's relative. There's always someone who had to earn it more, but it doesn't take away from the harvest for the individual. I'm happy for the guy who gets a 10 pointer every year, because he has money, friends, popularity, TV fame or high tech equipment. What does this person have to do with me? I do what I can with what I have in the boundaries of the laws in my land, and the motivation for me is to do better the next year. Absolutely, there is someone who thinks compound bows, crossbows and firearms are a sissy way of hunting and it's not real hunting. It's killing! It's all perspective. In 20 years, when hunters (killers) track deer by satellite, and can go sit in their stand 20 minutes before the buck gets there, people who bait now will be complaining. "What happen to the good old days when we carried 40lb bags of corn 200yds to bait our spot" Again, it will never stop as long as we are human. One guy gets it easier than another guy it's not the same. I say, one should enjoy their little legal hunting world, and don't worry about the other legal fella. Let him enjoy in his little legal hunting world.
|
|
|
Post by salt on Mar 31, 2015 10:34:49 GMT -5
Post of the year Jon!
|
|
|
Post by tynimiller on Mar 31, 2015 10:37:29 GMT -5
Jon I would never say they'll draw them in easier...from my experience with post-season apples like I described (some corn is mixed with at times) and off of what my close friends state as well as hunting over bait a couple times in Kansas this year...I do 100% believe it makes them more predictable. This primarily due to the timing is 100% controlled by the hunter as to when the food is available. If you fed your deer all year like you stated and hunted you 100% broke the law Jon... Yes, in the absolute terms, all year would be illegal. As stated, I fed until 10 days before the start of the season. Didn't feed during the season even after hunting ...didn't want any suspicions. It's a big part of the year, and it was a lot of money. Don't think I broke any laws, and have no desire to. I don't have the strength to haul down the food anymore. It would be nice to have a food plot of bait; it is what it is. It's not a garden. My point is that affordability has nothing to do with it. What I REALLY think is that old time hunters don't like new hunters getting what was difficult for them to get. What is this to anyone. I don't care that people who can have a food plot have one. It's none of my business. I just do what I can. I can't even feed now, but it is what it is. If they legalize people hunting with drones and I can't afford one, what is it to me? Same cry was heard when crossbows were legalized. Maybe, long bow hunters complained about a compound. It will continue as long as hunters are human. I say, obey the hunting laws whatever they are. No one has to like it, but if the animal was legally harvested it is as precious to the individual as one who did hunt naked with a long bow. It's relative. I don't care in the slightest what anyone thinks about how, when, what I wear or what weapon I used as long as it was legal. It's all human nature. If my neighbor inherits 100 acres of prime hunting ground next to mine when I work for 40 years to get mine, what is it to me? It's the same concept. An old time hunter feels like he earned his trophy, because he scouted for 300 hours, sniffed out the dropping to know which field he's feeding in.... I'm happy for this fells. He should be proud, but don't complain when the law and technology changes to make it more inviting to the young and old. I'm going to shoot one from a vehicle this year. I'll be warm and take naps, but it will mean just as much to me as the one that was difficult to get. It's relative. There's always someone who had to earn it more, but it doesn't take away from the harvest for the individual. I'm happy for the guy who gets a 10 pointer every year, because he has money, friends, popularity, TV fame or high tech equipment. What does this person have to do with me? I do what I can with what I have in the boundaries of the laws in my land, and the motivation for me is to do better the next year. Absolutely, there is someone who thinks compound bows, crossbows and firearms are a sissy way of hunting and it's not real hunting. It's killing! It's all perspective. In 20 years, when hunters (killers) track deer by satellite, and can go sit in their stand 20 minutes before the buck gets there, people who bait now will be complaining. "What happen to the good old days when we carried 40lb bags of corn 200yds to bait our spot" Again, it will never stop as long as we are human. One guy gets it easier than another guy it's not the same. I say, one should enjoy their little legal hunting world, and don't worry about the other legal fella. Let him enjoy in his little legal hunting world. I wholeheartedly can like and respect this post Jon. I'm not one to fight or go against anyone legally hunting, I will however discuss personal opinions but that is pretty much where it stops for me unless I truly do get a bur in my saddle which doesn't happen much....even then though there is a way to go about such discussions. Kudos.
|
|