Virginia looking to ban deer pee

[Woody Williams]

A friend of mine in Virginia sent this to me..

You all thoughts on this?



The DGIF has a two-year cycle for considering new regulations, and have just issued the agenda for their next public meeting. Along with the usual gaggle of season changes, etc., they have casually slipped in this little bombshell as a proposed change:

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37 E. No person shall, for the purposes of taking or attempting to take, attracting, or scouting any wild animal in Virginia, possess or use any substance or material that contains or purports to contain any excretion collected from a cervid, including feces, urine, blood, gland oil, or other bodily fluid.

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This is going to mightily off (ha, ha, pun intended) a LOT of people, but their rationale makes a lot of sense:

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(iii) The banning of the use of potentially infectious cervid excretions or substances is a critical preventative measure intended to reduce the risk of introducing CWD to a new area of Virginia.

The infectious agent responsible for CWD is known to be passed in the urine and feces of infected cervids, which can then be collected, bottled, and sold as a deer attractant or scent cover. CWD is
known to circulate in the captive cervid industry, which supplies the urine for commercial natural deer urine products; many captive cervid facilities have not been compliant with CWD testing programs, thereby avoiding detection and allowing production to continue.

CWD is considered by many state and federal natural resource agencies to be one of the most pertinent threats to the long-term health and stability of infected cervid populations; as such, VDGIF has already banned the movement of whole carcasses and high-risk carcass parts from CWD- infected areas of the country and does not allow captive cervid farming. Prohibiting the use of potentially infectious natural cervid products will serve to strengthen and further support the intent of regulations already in place in Virginia.

Lastly, hunters will still be able to legally use synthetic deer
substances as an alternative to natural, potentially infectious, cervid materials.
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I can already hear the howling. Deer pee is a big business, and no doubt a lot of pressure is going to be exerted on the DGIF about this proposal. But of late the DGIF has been adamant in their opposition to deer farms, and this is simply an extension of that policy. I've used this stuff once or twice, many years ago, and never found it very helpful, but I suppose a lot of people do think it works. I can't attend the meeting because of a conflict, but I wish I could, it's going to be a free-for-all of epic proportions.

[jjas]

This does bring up the question about deer farms I've asked in the past.....

Why are people so concerned about high fence hunting and CWD, but there seems to be much less concern about deer farms where urine and semen are collected and sold.

FWIW, I've never had much luck using deer urine and thus a law like this wouldn't bother me.

[hunterman]

I hope they do and I will tell you why. The people pushing this is the same people spreading this whole CWD scare BS. In addition to stopping urine sales they are claiming the soil is contaminated so all the areas that have had CWD can NO LONGER sell hay or crops or cattle. This goes for all the places in the wild as well. So if they are successful in this agenda it will get all the sportsmen, farmers and landowners involved in this fight. That will be the day that the CWD scare will be resolved and over for good. The grain farmers, cattle farmers and general public will have enough of a voice to call BS on the whole charade. Can you imagine millions of acres of farmland where nothing is allowed to be harvested, me neither and it wont happen. By the way, they just found CWD in Virginia in the wild and they have no deer farms.

[chubwub]

I will start this out by saying yes... it is very plausible that CWD assisted with spreading through the use of deer farm urine products. As for how much of an impact this has in spreading CWD, I am somewhat skeptical. The use of deer urine is well established as very situational, used sparingly, and oftentimes used in presentations that have very little chance of the deer coming in contact with it. (Scent wicks that are removed after the hunt, placed on deer decoys, spread sparingly on the ground, etc.)

How would they possibly be able to enforce this unless they witness it?? You carry an unmarked bottle of pee, act like it's your personal pee bottle and spread it in a scrape and once it's on the ground... uhhhh how are you going to tell if it's natural or farmed? Are the CO's going to go around and try to smell all these urine bottles and handle them and take them back to the lab for testing to determine that it is in fact deer urine in your possession?

The damage has already been done.

Incredibly flawed legislation that solves absolutely nothing. I would pretty upset too if I was a hunter in VA. Things that will now be a wildlife violation:

1.) Taking tarsal glands from a buddy's buck to use for scent
2.) Taking urine from a local doe you harvest
3.) Shooting a doe and leaving her there and harvesting buck attracted to her
4.)Transporting a deer. The way this is worded looks like merely possessing these items is a violation.

Is it a violation to hunt over a natural scape or deer poop in the woods?? How would a CO tell if it's natural or manmade?

Also... a little unfair to trappers wouldn't you think? Yeah deer urine is somewhat limited in it's use for trapping but I know there's a few critter lures out there that utilize it. What about the guys who want to use their deer guts for coyote hunting?

[swilk]

lol ... that would be fun making them prove exactly was was in that unmarked bottle.

[chubwub]

Mar 12, 2015 15:04:48 GMT -5 swilk said:

lol ... that would be fun making them prove exactly was was in that unmarked bottle.

And if they wanted to be that ridiculous about it.. I would make them, LOL.

[Woody Williams]

From the source in VA..


There is no scientific evidence that scents carry CWD; yet, but common sense dictates that they represent a serious disease introduction risk if thousands of VA deer hunters are pouring these products on the ground each fall.

First, CWD is firmly established in the captive deer industry. They will deny this. Second, the urine for these products is collected in and by this industry. Third, the CWD prion is found in urine, feces, saliva, etc. Note the process the industry uses to collect urine includes all of these excretions. Fourth, if this potentially infected product is poured on the ground in VA in November, bucks will investigate and "consume" it.

I have been advocating banning these products for many years. I personally consider them a much higher risk for CWD introduction than the out of state carcass parts that we already regulate. Also, note the regulation proposal does not prohibit the use of scents or attractants, but only those that contain deer urine (cervid excretions and body fluids). If you have any questions or need any additional information, please don't hesitate to call.

Sincerely,

W. Matt Knox
Deer Project Coordinator

[swilk]

I love when people use the words common sense when talking about their ideas....its also funny when they say something is true without offering any proof and then say others will deny it.

[chubwub]

There is no scientific evidence that scents carry CWD.

Then why are they making legislation regarding it if they have absolutely zero scientific data to support their theory? I find it jaw-dropping that rules like this are being made with absolutely no data to back it up. It was clearly demonstrated that lead shot was killing waterfowl via ingestion, it was clearly demonstrated that shotgun slugs can be more dangerous then HPR rounds, etc, etc, etc.  In my world, to make such rules without valid scientific justification is laughable.

I am also not sure how they think that banning cervid products is going to help if "synthetic products' will still be allowed on the market. They are aware that most synthetic products contain sheep and cow urine also have a risk of containing TSE's and that there is some speculation that CWD developed from scrapie or at the very least is capable of overcoming the species barrier?  www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19264659

Oh well. I am sure that they will go ahead and ban it anyway, but I seriously doubt it is going to make a difference. It's too difficult to enforce, too easy to sneak in, the synthetic stuff can have just as much of a risk, and it's going to be a long, nasty battle to get it off the shelves of stores even if the product is banned from hunting. I predict that CWD will still find a way into VA and spread even when there are no deer farms or deer urine products to blame anymore.

"Oh we are selling the deer urine/blood/feces for dog training purposes for tracking."
"No we sell our deer products strictly for use as a garden repellent."
"No we sell our deer products as a scent cover."

[dominator]

prions have been proven to pass in the urine....
is there any proof prions passed in the urine from CWD positive animals are infective?