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Post by trophyparadise on Apr 9, 2015 9:27:52 GMT -5
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Post by 10point on Apr 9, 2015 13:54:33 GMT -5
Him, Rob Bell, Oprah and whoever else should all get together.
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Post by Jamie Brooks 1John5:13 on Apr 9, 2015 14:02:48 GMT -5
I sure understand what you're talking about, but the bible did say this would happen. The lukewarm church of the latter days makes God want to spit them out of his mouth. The scary part is the these people have many followers. Don't you sometimes wonder what bible people are reading from?
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Post by span870 on Apr 9, 2015 14:14:42 GMT -5
I'm going to stick my neck out here and probably step on some toes.
Let me first state I don't condone a gay lifestyle. Its not for me and I do believe it's a sin. With that stated let me ask you this. As a lifelong bible student, does god view any sin greater than any other? Can you say you lived your life without any sin? Does god view your sins any less than he does gays, thief's, or murderers?
Just find it amusing when people pick and choose what sins they want to condone. I have several friends that are living the christian life as deep as can be. View drinking, smoking, tattoos an abomination to god. They can also show you word for word in the bible where it states this is so. Can you deny THESE sins?
To tell you the truth I have known several gay and lesbians in my life. Most of these people I would have to say are more genuine and real than some bible thumpers I know.
I guess my question is why is this the sin most focus on when preaching against sin. Why is this more of a sin than any?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2015 14:52:07 GMT -5
I'm going to stick my neck out here and probably step on some toes. Let me first state I don't condone a gay lifestyle. Its not for me and I do believe it's a sin. With that stated let me ask you this. As a lifelong bible student, does god view any sin greater than any other? Can you say you lived your life without any sin? Does god view your sins any less than he does gays, thief's, or murderers? Just find it amusing when people pick and choose what sins they want to condone. I have several friends that are living the christian life as deep as can be. View drinking, smoking, tattoos an abomination to god. They can also show you word for word in the bible where it states this is so. Can you deny THESE sins? To tell you the truth I have known several gay and lesbians in my life. Most of these people I would have to say are more genuine and real than some bible thumpers I know. I guess my question is why is this the sin most focus on when preaching against sin. Why is this more of a sin than any? Absolutely! This has become my number one issue! Every Christian I know, including myself, sins most every day. I set my cruise control about 5 mph above the legal limit...EVERY DAY. I have impure thoughts very often. I put other things before God pretty much every day. I think and say hateful things about my fellow man very often. I overeat very often. I eat meats I am not supposed to eat according to scripture. I wear blended fabrics every day. The list goes on and on. Yet, many in my church would have me point fingers at gays or people who have abortions or --fill in the blank--. Sin is sin, PERIOD! But Christians have become experts at categorizing sins. Certain sins (many that I mentioned, for instance) get little or no attention and won't raise an eyebrow...why? Because "we all do that"? It is sickening! What's more, it's driving young people away from churches at lightning speed. They can smell hypocrisy a mile away and they won't put up with it. If this stuff doesn't stop, we may see the virtual death of the church in this country within my lifetime.
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Post by swilk on Apr 9, 2015 15:25:07 GMT -5
Life is funny .... I know a man who is a homosexual, openly, and yet is among the most politically conservative and religious folks I know. A fantastic human being.
I dont really have anything else to add .... anyone who follows my posts here probably already knows where I stand on the entire issue.
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Post by Jamie Brooks 1John5:13 on Apr 9, 2015 20:06:00 GMT -5
I'm going to stick my neck out here and probably step on some toes. Let me first state I don't condone a gay lifestyle. Its not for me and I do believe it's a sin. With that stated let me ask you this. As a lifelong bible student, does god view any sin greater than any other? Can you say you lived your life without any sin? Does god view your sins any less than he does gays, thief's, or murderers? Just find it amusing when people pick and choose what sins they want to condone. I have several friends that are living the christian life as deep as can be. View drinking, smoking, tattoos an abomination to god. They can also show you word for word in the bible where it states this is so. Can you deny THESE sins? To tell you the truth I have known several gay and lesbians in my life. Most of these people I would have to say are more genuine and real than some bible thumpers I know. I guess my question is why is this the sin most focus on when preaching against sin. Why is this more of a sin than any? I don't think you stepped on any toes. You asked very good questions, and made good points in a respectful manner. I'm not thinking that our beef with Joel is what you may think. Anyone who wants to change the New Testament is in deep trouble with the Lord, and I believe that false teachers will burn the hottest. Let me address the sin issue. These Christians who speak out on any particular sin are just sinful humans like us hunters (or me a deer killer.) They have hot spot issues just like us with pinned up deer, and baiting, but it's hard to look at them this way ...but it might be good to try. The reason homosexuality is such a hot spot for some Christians stems from a couple of levels ...in my opinion. The bible specifically calls it an abomination to God. However, as I have stated before all sin is an abomination to God, and all of us fall short of perfection ...thus needing Jesus' perfect blood sacrifice to wash our sins away. It is this simple. On another level, it is very offensive to people, as most can understand. Some Russians hate them, but it's not from Christianity. My brother is openly gay, but I see him as my brother and love him as such. Whether or not he was homosexual wouldn't change his position on Christianity and he would fall short on any other sin. For the life of me, I cannot understand how a man can find another man sexually attractive. My mind just won't go there. To me and many it's gross. LOL But indeed, my brother is attracted to men just as I am my wife. His brain must be wired opposite of mine in this area. He will tell you that his life is hard and that no one would choose this difficult lifestyle. I'm not so sure about this point in an absolute way, but I see his point. Personally, I think it can be cured, but it will never be identified as a disease. So, is one sin worse than another? Not as it regards salvation as I have explained. However, I've been taught and believe that there are different degrees of punishment after death, and believe that people who teach false doctrine will be in the worst place. What is false doctrine? I can address this another time. A simple fact is that God loves any homosexual just as much as me, and I do belong to Him. I say this, because He loved me before I knew Him. We must remember that Jesus did not come into the world to condemn it (us); He came to provide a way to the Father ...to save us from our sin. Evangelism is one of my gifts from God. It is He who uses me to win souls for Him; I can do nothing, but open my mouth. It's God's love that woooos people to him. What has happen in the contemporary church is that they've gone too far. How can we go too far preaching love? If we preach that God loves us so much that he wants us to be happy to live the life that we please. This is false and very dangerous teaching. God is much more concerned with my Holiness than my happiness. Here is the lukewarm church that God speaks about: Revelation 3;15-17 15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17 You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. They claim to be Christian, but do not see their sin and live for self. Look at Met; he's made a full confession here. He knows his sin. Controlling my self to live as sin free as I possible can consumes a lot of my attention. I don't have time to throw many rocks at others. Sure Christians sin, and one deceives one's self if one thinks otherwise. What is a hot Christian? My friends tell me that I am, but I just see a man seeking the will of the Father in my life. It's not the sin that sends one to hell; it's the rejection of the perfection of Jesus, because we cannot do it ourselves. I could write a book here, but will stop.
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Post by greghopper on Apr 9, 2015 20:24:22 GMT -5
How long you been "SAVED" John?? If I may ask....
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Post by Jamie Brooks 1John5:13 on Apr 9, 2015 20:57:09 GMT -5
How long you been "SAVED" John?? If I may ask.... I accepted the Lord when I was 12 in a little racially mixed Baptist church. I'll be 55 on Monday. Oh man, God is a patient God. If it had been me, I would have struck me down with a lightning bolt decades ago. We all go through trials and tribulations which mold us into something much better. Greg, the bible describes three levels of a Christian. I remember not understanding the things that I do now. I remember when I was a rock throwing bible thumper, and feel that I did more harm for the ministry of Christ than I ever did any good. We become a new creation, and that new creation has the Holy Spirit living in them. This Spirit will teach us and mold us, and we never stop learning. Even though I was a bible thumper in my younger days, the Lord used it to win many for Him. I'm just much more wise "mellow" now, and more Christ like. When my focus turned to me and my sin, looking in the mirror so to speak, I stopped throwing stones. I've never been more surrendered to the will of the Father and have never been happier. My heart breaks for the lost, and me throwing stones will not break the hardened heart of the lost. I see it melt away now.
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Post by span870 on Apr 9, 2015 21:01:51 GMT -5
John, I understand what you are saying but it still doesn't answer the question of why some Christians pick and choose. All Joel said here was that god excepts all Christians into heaven regardless of sin as long as they have Christ in their hearts and repent in their sins. Why is homosexuality a greater sin than any other? He does don't view mets misgivings, my misgivings or your misgiving any different. He teaches us to love all, he died for our sins, one and all. Those who condemn gays are in fact commuting a sin by condemning them. Joel simply stated that some that was preached in that time was outdated. Do you not agree? There is no way society today would function under those laws. Example, bearing false witness. Do you believe that if I testify that you committed murder and was found out to be a lie I should serve life in prison for that lie?
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Post by Jamie Brooks 1John5:13 on Apr 9, 2015 21:50:35 GMT -5
John, I understand what you are saying but it still doesn't answer the question of why some Christians pick and choose. All Joel said here was that god excepts all Christians into heaven regardless of sin as long as they have Christ in their hearts and repent in their sins. Why is homosexuality a greater sin than any other? He does don't view mets misgivings, my misgivings or your misgiving any different. He teaches us to love all, he died for our sins, one and all. Those who condemn gays are in fact commuting a sin by condemning them. Joel simply stated that some that was preached in that time was outdated. Do you not agree? There is no way society today would function under those laws. Example, bearing false witness. Do you believe that if I testify that you committed murder and was found out to be a lie I should serve life in prison for that lie? I did not read the article, but spoke from my opinion of Joel. ANY truly born again child of God will enter the Kingdom of heaven. The bible tells us not to judge, but this judging is of one's motives, things of the heart. The reason is that only God knows the heart. We can judge sin, and sin has always been sin; it hasn't changed, and God hasn't changed, and the way we preach it should not change. Homosexual or not, I cannot say what is in this person's heart. Oppositely, the Pharisees had the appearance of righteousness, but were not. I do not know for sure if Joel is saved. I cannot say that an individual gay person is not saved. I can say that homosexuality is a sin. Only God knows all of those who belong to him, but we will see the fruit of the Spirit in that person. If it doesn't bear fruit, it's not a fruit tree. What people will say is that a homosexual cannot continue in this sin and be saved. The reason they say this is because we do become a new creation. All things become new. What I tell people is that if they truly give their heart to God that God will work sin out of their life, and he will. It's taken him 40 years to work some out of me, yet I am still not perfect and never will be. God see me as perfect only because he sees the shed blood of Jesus covering my sins. The difference is in sinning and practicing sin. We will always sin, but to practice it, we will not do it long without a swift kick in the pants from the Father. This I know. No homosexuality is not different than me telling a lie, boasting, thinking more of myself than I should, or not doing something that I should have done. But again, this applies to one's salvation. Is homosexuality a greater sin than telling a lie? I'm not sure that I need to worry about it. I'm just worried about one's eternal resting place. It's man who likes to rank ...everything! I can see how a homosexual will enter the Kingdom of heaven, and it's the same way that I see myself or Met. We are heterosexuals, and sex outside the marriage is forbidden to us. Well, Jesus raised the bar from the commandment. He says that if a man looks upon a woman to lust after her that he has committed adultery. So does this mean that I will never lust after another woman now that I've been saved for 43 years? All sexual sin is especially difficult for men. I tell you a truth that this man works very hard to control his eyes, and it starts in my heart. Mankind has a heart problem. My spiritual heart is a beast of strength, but my physical one is weak. Thank God for this! Not one sin was ever committed that wasn't first conceived in the heart, and this is what Jesus was talking about. I HATE my sin, any of my sins! I do not practice any sin. I will slip, but fewer and fewer times. The specific reason why they pick and choose what they are against is because it is not their weakness. They don't do it, so they feel they can target it. No, it is no different than the sin that they commit, but it is offensive on another level too that makes them even more vocal about it.
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Post by Jamie Brooks 1John5:13 on Apr 9, 2015 23:32:51 GMT -5
John, I understand what you are saying but it still doesn't answer the question of why some Christians pick and choose. All Joel said here was that god excepts all Christians into heaven regardless of sin as long as they have Christ in their hearts and repent in their sins. Why is homosexuality a greater sin than any other? He does don't view mets misgivings, my misgivings or your misgiving any different. He teaches us to love all, he died for our sins, one and all. Those who condemn gays are in fact commuting a sin by condemning them. Joel simply stated that some that was preached in that time was outdated. Do you not agree? There is no way society today would function under those laws. Example, bearing false witness. Do you believe that if I testify that you committed murder and was found out to be a lie I should serve life in prison for that lie? I have a question for you. Do you have any turkey in Henry County?
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Post by span870 on Apr 10, 2015 6:00:11 GMT -5
John, I understand what you are saying but it still doesn't answer the question of why some Christians pick and choose. All Joel said here was that god excepts all Christians into heaven regardless of sin as long as they have Christ in their hearts and repent in their sins. Why is homosexuality a greater sin than any other? He does don't view mets misgivings, my misgivings or your misgiving any different. He teaches us to love all, he died for our sins, one and all. Those who condemn gays are in fact commuting a sin by condemning them. Joel simply stated that some that was preached in that time was outdated. Do you not agree? There is no way society today would function under those laws. Example, bearing false witness. Do you believe that if I testify that you committed murder and was found out to be a lie I should serve life in prison for that lie? I have a question for you. Do you have any turkey in Henry County? Good change of subject. . Very little turkey. There are a very few out at wilber wright. That is why I moved. I live down in Lawrence county now. Man do we have turkeys down here. Lots of deer, rabbit, squirrel. You name it. Night and day difference from up there. And I have more land to hunt than I can cover my lifetime. In regards to this article, I'd say its god's country.
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Post by trophyparadise on Apr 10, 2015 6:55:53 GMT -5
My problem with osteen is that he is intentionally distorting the scriptures in order to attract a wider array of people to his church..at $20 per seat. If he doesn't think the first century bible writers were right, he has a right to think that...but he should not be calling himself a Christian after openly acknowledging he doesn't believe in the bible. If that's how he feels he should go start his own religion like the scientologists did...but call it something besides Christianity because it isn't. As far as his mention of homosexuals going to heaven, the part that is really disturbing is that he makes no mention for the need of repentance, but that openly practicing homosexuals can get into heaven. I do believe that a gay person, or any other sinner, can receive God's kingdom...If they show repentance for those sins. A person who lives a life contrary to God's commands and has no remorse for doing so will not inherit his kingdom...God makes that clear. Osteen has polluted the very core of Christian beliefs because he wants to appeal to the masses Trophy Paradise Habitat Consulting "Trophies are built from the ground up" www.facebook.com/trophyparadise
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2015 7:08:31 GMT -5
No one will ever "work the sin out of their lives". Can't be done. Our selfish nature will always lead us to sin daily, whether it manifests itself outwardly where others can see it or inwardly.
If you (not anyone in particular...just "you" in general) don't think you sin every day, then you aren't examining yourself hard enough.
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Post by freedomhunter on Apr 10, 2015 7:51:44 GMT -5
No one will ever "work the sin out of their lives". Can't be done. Our selfish nature will always lead us to sin daily, whether it manifests itself outwardly where others can see it or inwardly. If you (not anyone in particular...just "you" in general) don't think you sin every day, then you aren't examining yourself hard enough. This is creeping into our society from the liberals. As conservatives, we need to stand up for what Christianity is and means. Yes, we all sin and fall short of the glory, but we don't all accept a lifestyle of constant sin that defines who we are. This is homosexuality, basicly you cannot steal the horse and repent and keep the horse, forgiveness doesn't work that way. Homosexuals are condemned to Hell as long as they accept that lifestyle of sin. Furthermore, I would say if you accept them as friends you are associating with sinners. It is not a bad habit that you can improve on and ask for help with and forgiveness. Given that, I am not a hater and as a Christian try to love everyone. I will not discriminate against them and will treat them as God's children. But, I won't sugar coat the fact that they are condemned and I won't willingly keep their company.
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Post by greghopper on Apr 10, 2015 7:57:50 GMT -5
No one will ever "work the sin out of their lives". Can't be done. Our selfish nature will always lead us to sin daily, whether it manifests itself outwardly where others can see it or inwardly. If you (not anyone in particular...just "you" in general) don't think you sin every day, then you aren't examining yourself hard enough. This is creeping into our society from the liberals. As conservatives, we need to stand up for what Christianity is and means. Yes, we all sin and fall short of the glory, but we don't all accept a lifestyle of constant sin that defines who we are. This is homosexuality, basicly you cannot steal the horse and repent and keep the horse, forgiveness doesn't work that way. Homosexuals are condemned to Hell as long as they accept that lifestyle of sin. Furthermore, I would say if you accept them as friends you are associating with sinners. It is not a bad habit that you can improve on and ask for help with and forgiveness. Given that, I am not a hater and as a Christian try to love everyone. I will not discriminate against them and will treat them as God's children. But, I won't sugar coat the fact that they are condemned and I won't willingly keep their company. EXACTLY.... Well said...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2015 8:08:21 GMT -5
That's not exactly how Jesus handled it. But it is exactly what the Pharisees said. Those were the folks Jesus had WAY more issues with than the so called sinners.
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Post by greghopper on Apr 10, 2015 8:19:31 GMT -5
SMH....
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Post by trophyparadise on Apr 10, 2015 8:19:43 GMT -5
That's not exactly how Jesus handled it. But it is exactly what the Pharisees said. Those were the folks Jesus had WAY more issues with than the so called sinners. This has been eye-opening. It's been a good 10 year run here, but I think it's run it's course. Have fun. And good hunting. My views on doctrine are a bit different than what would be considered "mainstream Christianity." I agree with you that that isn't how Jesus would have handled it. I don't believe in condemning people to eternal torment, but the actions of a person will determine their fate. Trophy Paradise Habitat Consulting "Trophies are built from the ground up" www.facebook.com/trophyparadise
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