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Post by swilk on May 21, 2015 6:07:54 GMT -5
I've also pondered how the data in that study might change if it took into account hpr's using bonded or solid type bullets that will not fragment. I would say more often than not any premium bullet used for taking deer sized and larger game will not fragment on impact with brush/grass/hair on Bigfoots back.
IMO that study tells a small part of a big picture. Not saying hprs are dangerous by any means....anyone with any sense knows its the being behind the trigger....just saying I won't point to that study and say definitively anything.
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Post by omegahunter on May 21, 2015 7:03:23 GMT -5
I've also pondered how the data in that study might change if it took into account hpr's using bonded or solid type bullets that will not fragment. I would say more often than not any premium bullet used for taking deer sized and larger game will not fragment on impact with brush/grass/hair on Bigfoots back. IMO that study tells a small part of a big picture. Not saying hprs are dangerous by any means....anyone with any sense knows its the being behind the trigger....just saying I won't point to that study and say definitively anything. Kind of how surveys can be steered with the wording of questions or selection of questions posed. The study could have been steered by choosing what projectiles to include or exclude from the study.
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Post by dbd870 on May 21, 2015 7:40:12 GMT -5
Kind of a side track but I find it interesting how well the "bonded" advertising has worked. For large game I'd use them too, but if you stop and think about it aren't the regular old GameKings etc. actually a better choice for deer. I don't want a bullet that acts like a solid on a deer.
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Post by jjas on May 21, 2015 7:56:29 GMT -5
I think this boiled down to a few groups not wanting hprs....(and I'm certain all of these groups share some overlap).
1. Hunters and land owners who were genuinely concerned about safety.
2. Hunters who feel like the herd is being reduced in too large of numbers as it is and felt hprs would further raise those numbers.
3. Hunters who feel like we've had enough changes made to the regs over the last few years.
4. Those who have had "issues" with the gun season for years and want it shortened and/or moved and certainly didn't mind using "safety" and "herd reduction" in their comments to try and derail the potential use of hprs.
And IMHO, if this is brought back in the next year or so and herd reduction is still ongoing and/or people are still complaining about the lack of deer in their areas, it will have a hard time passing yet again.
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Post by swilk on May 21, 2015 8:24:17 GMT -5
Kind of a side track but I find it interesting how well the "bonded" advertising has worked. For large game I'd use them too, but if you stop and think about it aren't the regular old GameKings etc. actually a better choice for deer. I don't want a bullet that acts like a solid on a deer. I was talking more the Barnes and other all copper bullets...but wouldn't you think that most of today's middle of the road up to premium bullets would hold together at designed speeds instead of fragmenting? I went away from Hornady SSP for my 358bfg because I was running them faster than design speed and they didn't hold together. I guess I'm just not a believer in the thought process that today's deer and larger bullets are going to fragment when they hit something. Varmit bullets yes. Medium game bullets no.
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Post by dbd870 on May 21, 2015 9:08:34 GMT -5
According to the study your basic cup and core is more likely to come apart. Now that may well not be true for the Barnes, and no doubt there is more than one person using the premium bullet for their deer load. I was just commenting they are probably doing themselves a disservice.
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Post by greghopper on May 21, 2015 9:27:54 GMT -5
I think this boiled down to a few groups not wanting hprs....(and I'm certain all of these groups share some overlap). 1. Hunters and land owners who were genuinely concerned about safety. 2. Hunters who feel like the herd is being reduced in too large of numbers as it is and felt hprs would further raise those numbers. 3. Hunters who feel like we've had enough changes made to the regs over the last few years. 4. Those who have had "issues" with the gun season for years and want it shortened and/or moved and certainly didn't mind using "safety" and "herd reduction" in their comments to try and derail the potential use of hprs. And IMHO, if this is brought back in the next year or so and herd reduction is still ongoing and/or people are still complaining about the lack of deer in their areas, it will have a hard time passing yet again. I would say it will be around 3 year mark before it rolls back around.... This stems from info posted from folks in the know!!! But yes a lot minds are gonna have to change with limitions attached!!!
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Post by Jamie Brooks 1John5:13 on May 21, 2015 10:06:24 GMT -5
Kind of a side track but I find it interesting how well the "bonded" advertising has worked. For large game I'd use them too, but if you stop and think about it aren't the regular old GameKings etc. actually a better choice for deer. I don't want a bullet that acts like a solid on a deer. I was talking more the Barnes and other all copper bullets...but wouldn't you think that most of today's middle of the road up to premium bullets would hold together at designed speeds instead of fragmenting? I went away from Hornady SSP for my 358bfg because I was running them faster than design speed and they didn't hold together. I guess I'm just not a believer in the thought process that today's deer and larger bullets are going to fragment when they hit something. Varmit bullets yes. Medium game bullets no. I haven't read any studies, but was wondering about something. I took my 300 blackout to a farm to let some people shoot it. The round was Horaday 110gr V-Max. I shot through an ~ 1-1/2 diameter branch about 40yds away. I thought it would splinter and open up a larger hole on the back, but it didn't. Help me understand why it didn't.
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Post by dbd870 on May 21, 2015 10:36:23 GMT -5
Wood and flesh are very different mediums
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Post by swilk on May 21, 2015 10:45:24 GMT -5
Design speed and impact speed ..... Density of the medium hit. Impact angle.
All sorts of stuff comes into play....
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Post by Jamie Brooks 1John5:13 on May 21, 2015 10:49:53 GMT -5
I'm just a bit confused at how a twig can splinter a bullet when the branch didn't. The velocity is close to 3000 ft/sec. I'm just confused.
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Post by hornzilla on May 21, 2015 10:56:21 GMT -5
I think this boiled down to a few groups not wanting hprs....(and I'm certain all of these groups share some overlap). 1. Hunters and land owners who were genuinely concerned about safety. 2. Hunters who feel like the herd is being reduced in too large of numbers as it is and felt hprs would further raise those numbers. 3. Hunters who feel like we've had enough changes made to the regs over the last few years. 4. Those who have had "issues" with the gun season for years and want it shortened and/or moved and certainly didn't mind using "safety" and "herd reduction" in their comments to try and derail the potential use of hprs. And IMHO, if this is brought back in the next year or so and herd reduction is still ongoing and/or people are still complaining about the lack of deer in their areas, it will have a hard time passing yet again. I would say it will be around 3 year mark before it rolls back around.... This stems from info posted from folks in the know!!! But yes a lot minds are gonna have to change with limitions attached!!! I have the feeling that this was its one shot deal of passing. I personally don't think it will ever come back up. If it does it will be a long time from now.
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Post by swilk on May 21, 2015 10:57:02 GMT -5
That particular bullet .... That particular shot.
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Post by Jamie Brooks 1John5:13 on May 21, 2015 11:49:29 GMT -5
That particular bullet .... That particular shot. I appreciate your input and knowledge swilk. The bullet did go through the middle of this branch. So, are you thinking then that the bullets that are designed to give greater penetration don't splinter as quickly or easily? Are you thinking that this type of bullet isn't the best choice for deer?
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Post by swilk on May 21, 2015 14:14:57 GMT -5
Bullets have a lot of variances for their intended use.
Bonded core or solids are designed to penetrate without ever breaking apart. Generally intended for use on big, heavy or dangerous game.
Other bullets are designed to mushroom while penetrating smaller, thinner skinned game.
Others are designed to literally blow apart on impact when used on varmit sized game.
All bullets have impact velocity ranges....deliver it within that range and it should act as designed. Deliver it outside that range, either slower or faster, and the characteristics will likely change.
And just when you think you have it all figured out you can find unlimited numbers of reports from guys who did everything right and the bullet did not do what it was designed to do.
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Post by varmint101 on May 21, 2015 15:08:10 GMT -5
This reminded me, two years ago I killed a deer with my muzzleloader and a Hornady SST bullet. I didn't see the tree in the cross hairs and centered a decent sized dogwood. The bullet went through about 3" of tree and the core that went through is what killed the deer! Pretty wild.
That said for rifles I believe you would see way more polymer tipped boattails like a Nosler ballistic tip or a Hornady SST type than you'd ever see in Nosler partition or Barnes bullets. I killed a deer with a 270 Encore pistol that was maybe 20yards out. Used a 130gr Nosler ballistic tip and it destroyed both shoulders. Lost a lot of meat on that one.
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Post by throbak on May 21, 2015 18:43:38 GMT -5
Firstwd Do you live where you hunt or hunt somewhere and Go Home?
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Post by firstwd on May 22, 2015 11:17:55 GMT -5
Firstwd Do you live where you hunt or hunt somewhere and Go Home? Both. I have almost 5000 acres i hunt spread across several different counties.
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Post by Jamie Brooks 1John5:13 on May 22, 2015 13:33:33 GMT -5
Firstwd Do you live where you hunt or hunt somewhere and Go Home? Both. I have almost 5000 acres i hunt spread across several different counties. There you go again! I need a nitro pill. That's more land than I can drive across in a day without taking a nap.
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Post by INhuntin on May 22, 2015 17:17:43 GMT -5
That particular bullet .... That particular shot. I appreciate your input and knowledge swilk. The bullet did go through the middle of this branch. So, are you thinking then that the bullets that are designed to give greater penetration don't splinter as quickly or easily? Are you thinking that this type of bullet isn't the best choice for deer? That is a great choice for hunting deer.(Sorry for the graphic deer hunting photos) I hunted with that very round (Hornady .300 Whisper 110gr V-max)last season with an AR pistol & took a doe 75 yds out with one shot. It was a perfect shot she stumbled about another ten ft. then dropped. A very small .30 cal hole entry wound. The exit wound is a lot larger almost the size of a hard ball. When I say perfect shot I mean perfect, it took the bottom off of the heart & passed through both lungs she went fast. If you only take deer out to about 30 or 40 yds you would be better off using a shotgun. But out farther the bullet has time to slow down & causes more damage. I like the .300 blackout or Whisper because of the low recoil & amazing accuracy. I can keep a soft ball sized pattern out past 100yds easily from my 9.5" barreled pistol.
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