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Post by throbak on Oct 19, 2010 8:33:46 GMT -5
bought on Thursday and hunted with on sat . you can do that with any fire arm made///// you been to a DR lately??? do you have 4 or 5 hundred to spend on a deer permit so a Dr. can tell you you are 60 and well things just don't work like they used to????Talk is there are 400 yd wildcats out there is that fair to most hunting with shotguns. I would say at least 75% of Deer Hunting is on private land anyway ,use your stupid restrictions there... every state around us allows x-bows in early archery, and alot seem to think the deer are bigger in those states (not me) it hasn't devastated their herds has it?? crossbows are still a short range weapon And if they are so more accurate as said, what is wrong for being more efficient with your shots???
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Post by tickman1961 on Oct 19, 2010 8:37:24 GMT -5
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Post by hornharvester on Oct 19, 2010 9:13:56 GMT -5
Old ways are hard to change. To me not wanting to share the woods and protecting "my" buck are the real reasons not wanting crossbows in all archery. h.h.
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Post by drs on Oct 19, 2010 9:43:42 GMT -5
That's "Hoosier" rule makings for you...... the IDNR & NRC, et al.
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Post by Russ Koon on Oct 19, 2010 20:16:26 GMT -5
hornharvester, I am sure you are mistaken in that impression.
I've been shooting archery and bowhunting now for 48 years. I was introduced to the sport by a bowhunter and target archer who was a relative of a good friend in school, who brought that friend and I into target shooting and helped us get off on the right foot bowhunting as well. In the time since, I honestly can say the vast majority of the archers and bowhunters I've known have been actively involved in recruiting at least a few other new bowhunters and/or archers. Many of them have been very active in those efforts with some of the "elitist, selfish" organizations that some of you seem to suspect of ulterior motives.
Our motivation in trying to preserve bow season for people using bows is not saving game or space in the woods for ourselves. We all are very happy to see newcomers to our beloved pastime, and I can honestly say that I don't know a single bowhunter who has not at least played a small part in recruiting someone.
How can that be motivated by the desire to save our big bucks or our space in the woods?
Many of us have also been actively involved in various organized efforts to provide hunting opportunities for the handicapped, whether it be with bow or crossbow. Again, I can't see how those efforts can be seen as bowhunters or their organizations attempting to selfishly keep any game or hunting areas for themselves. We have always welcomed newcomers, and as far back as I can recall, that has included any who needed to use a crossbow to participate.
I have some old magazines dating back into the early sixties that have articles showing some of those exemplary efforts by the bowhunters of that time, and if I recall, such efforts were not new even then.
The battles have always been over the inclusion of some other technology into the sport, whether it be the recurves of Fred bear's time, or the compounds of Tom Jennings time, or mechanical releases, of just a generation ago. The people have always been welcome, but sometimes their gear was met with resistance.
That situation is far from exclusive to bowhunters. A more direct comparison could probably be made between the bowhunters versus those who would include crossbows for anyone who chose to use them in bow season and the older muzzle loaders versus those who would shoot the in-line, pelleted, 209-equipped, scoped, thumbholed stainless whatevers.
It may be "elitism" or maybe it's just trying to preserve a tradition, but it's certainly not an attempt to save game or room in the woods for either the bowhunter or the more traditional ML enthusiasts, who also welcome newcomers to their sport when they show up carrying an acceptable weapon. In either case, the opportunity is there, it's not being denied anyone except those who would redefine the sport to suit themselves rather than join it.
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Post by racktracker on Oct 19, 2010 20:35:53 GMT -5
And if my preferred hunting method is to use a .243 at night, shooting them down in the river bottom fields, is that OK? Or do some of you "elitists" want to continue denying me my opportunity to kill 'em the way I want? After all, a dead deer is a dead deer, right? Russ, You know full well that hunting regulations are based on one of several things 1) Fair chase 2) Safety 3) Harm/good to/for the resource Your .243 at night fails all three. Crossbows on the other hand passes all three. That was a very poor comparision and frankly I am surprised at you using it.
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Post by hornharvester on Oct 19, 2010 23:18:59 GMT -5
I stand by what I said. Old ways are hard to change.
20 years ago you would get beat up if you talked about killing does in certain circles, now we are told to kill them all! When compounds came on the scene they took the same heat crossbows are now.
Michigan is probably the biggest bow hunting state and they got it right last year. Its just a matter of time until the DNR gets enough of the nay sayers and make crossbows legal in all archery like they should be. h.h.
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Post by firstwd on Oct 20, 2010 5:56:04 GMT -5
I'm still just waiting on a answer as to what is wrong with crossbows?
All I read was they can be cocked and held forever basically and the movement is easier to conceal. Isn't that the same things that were said when 65% let%off bows came around, and now they are up about 85% let-off? Differences in performance make a logical argument to me I guess, such as centerfire rifles verses shotguns, and magnum muzzle loaders verses flintlocks.
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Post by huxbux on Oct 20, 2010 6:54:53 GMT -5
Russ, I know you shoot a Matthews. With such a huge amount of let-off isn't that easier to master and couldn't it be considered an unfair advantage over someone using a recurve? Same logic, same conclusion. That conclusion is agenda driven.
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Post by Russ Koon on Oct 20, 2010 7:32:52 GMT -5
Racktracker, so you're saying that just pacifying the public outcry for some changes isn't a factor, whether they are good for the resource or not?
Hmmm... kinda hard to explain allowing the .410 slugs, then, isn't it? Or the flint BH's?
Hey, I'm all for all the freedom we can stand. But some things in the regulations do make sense (unlike te possession limits on squirrels), and probably shouldn't be tossed out just because a number of people would rather make it a little easier for themselves.
If we are to have any seasons for restricted weapons use, then we have to at some point define those weapons. I don't see the crossbow as inherently "evil", I'm just saying it's not a bow, and it's silly to pretend that it is.
What's wrong with the crossbow? or the draw-lock? or the rifle that shoots a bolt using a powder charge? or some other gizmo we haven't seen yet? Maybe nothing, but the decision has to be made at some point that the weapon under discussion does or doesn't fit the definition of the equipment the season allows. That's all we're doing here.
I'm not even necessarily against modernizing our definitions. I started out ML'ing with a .45 flintlock mountain rifle shooting patched round balls, but now I shoot an inline with a scope and use elongated bullets with little plastic skirts on them! Maybe it's progress or maybe it's the loss of a beautiful tradition. Kinda depends on your individul outlook on the item in question, and like hornharvester points out, on the prevailing sentiment at the time.
I'm just saying let's be honest in our arguments. People are not being denied their opportunity to hunt by anyone except themselves when they choose a weapon that does not fit the description of a legal weapon for that season. Noone is denying any individual the privilege of joining in on the limited weapons season with the weapon the regulations specify.
Given the high percentage of older hunters who have arthritic or otherwise impaired shoulders or severe tendonitis, I can even see opening the bow season to anyone past a certain age using a crossbow, because most of them would qualify if they bothered to ask a doc for the "mother-may-I" slip. Probably about 55 would be a reasonable age, as I've seen a considerable number of archers dropping out at about that age range with various physical limitations.
And I don't even own a .243 or any other centerfire long gun. I just used the exaggerated example to illustrate the fallacy of the argument being used. If I am an "elitist" because I think the bow season should be for people using bows, then what are the people who think shotgun season should be for those using shotguns? Or who think ML season should be for those who are actually using ML's, as opposed to blackpowder cartridges?
And if we want to change a season, let's be honest and say we just don't WANT to bother with doing it the way it has been done all along, we want to make it easier. Why try to invent some bogeymen who are supposedly denying a bunch of people their "right" to use the weapon of their choice in a season designated for something else?
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Post by Russ Koon on Oct 20, 2010 8:07:46 GMT -5
huxbux, yep, I sure hope my Mathews is a big improvement over my old Bear recurves that I started out with nearly fifty years ago.
As to whether it's an unfair advantage, that question was settled after much of this same sort of arguing as you say, many years ago.
The myth about drawing the compound and waiting for a deer to come down the trail, is just that, a myth. I've shot heavy tackle for more than forty years and could only hold for something like thirty seconds and still get off a good shot, back when I was in good shape.
The traditional archer, which I was too, back before compounds got popular, could do very nearly the same thing by simply drawing partially (an option not open to the compounder) and holding with some tension on the string, leaving that last six inches or so of draw to be done immediately before the shot. Neither practice was anything remotely like drawing and cocking the crossbow on Monday and shooting your deer on Thursday.
The performance advantages of the compound were a little more of a factor, although they weren't as pronounced back then as they are now. My first Jennings was maybe ten percent faster than the recurve it replaced, using the same arrows.
I remember when I finally switched to the compound for good. I did a bunch of comparisons taking the recurve and the compound both to the range, both equipped with sights. The deciding factor turned out to be that the compound was very nearly as accurate with the first shot of the day as it was after warming up, but the first few shots with the recurve were spread around a bit. Once I was warmed up, the groups were almost identical, and the compound didn't shoot much flatter. I figured the first shot was going to be the important one in the woods, and that tipped the scales for me.
The performance differences between the modern compiound and the crossbow are not the issue. If anything, the compound does probably have a small edge in that fight, since the arrow usually outweighs the bolt, and the longer power stroke does a better job of transferring energy into the projectile. Folks get way too excited by that strawman.
The real advantages are those things I mentioned, the ability to use it with no drawing motion in the presence of game, like a gun, and the concealability advantage, also like a gun. And of course the advantage in selling them to a public that doesn't want to be bothered by the need to learn to shoot the weapon, if they already know how to sight in and shoot a gun.
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Post by swilk on Oct 20, 2010 8:24:30 GMT -5
Russ, some simply will not accept that others of us feel that a cross-bow is not archery gear.
They ask why. They try and convince us that we are wrong. They offer whatever reasoning they can imagine to try and make us think they way they think. They call us names.
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Post by speckle on Oct 20, 2010 8:27:53 GMT -5
Do they have compound bows that you don't have to pull back like crossbows?
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Post by swilk on Oct 20, 2010 8:30:42 GMT -5
Not sure I understand the question....?
I load my dads xbow in one of two ways .... I either put my foot in the sling, put the stock in my belly and pull the string until it locks in place. Or .... I use the attached cranking device to "reel in" the string until it locks.
I am not aware of any compound bows that are drawn in similar ways.
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Post by Woody Williams on Oct 20, 2010 8:47:13 GMT -5
Russ, some simply will not accept that others of us feel that a cross-bow is not archery gear. They ask why. They try and convince us that we are wrong. They offer whatever reasoning they can imagine to try and make us think they way they think. They call us names. Are crossbows archery gear? In the majority of the world the answer would be yes, they are archery equipment. Only in the United States do you get some bowhunters and bowhunting organizations that don't think that. Of course they are "protecting their own". THE NAA - the OLDEST archery organization have recognized crossbows for about 60 years. The International Bowhunters Organization has had a crossbow division for several years AND growing every year. THE NFAA now recognizes crossbows at its VEGAS championships. Atlantic City had crossbow divisions for years, that shoot was recently acquired by the NFAA, but its crossbow division is several decades old. The Archery Trade Association and its predecessor, the Archery Manufacturers Organization recognizes crossbows as archery equipment. So does most retail dealers- almost every shop that sells archery equipment and guns have crossbows in the archery department, not the firearm counter. Go into Bass Pro or Cabela’s or Dicks and see where the crossbows are kept. Every archery catalog I get from the retailers has crossbows in it. Bow and Arrow Magazine carries crossbow advertising. According to the Internal Revenue Service, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and all state wildlife agencies, crossbows are archery equipment: > Crossbows and accessories that attach to crossbows as well as crossbow arrows are defined in the Internal Revenue Code that pertains to the archery excise tax. > The US Fish & Wildlife Service receives the archery excise tax funds - of which about 10% are from crossbows - from the IRS and allocates those dollars to the state wildlife agencies through the Pittman Robertson program. > State wildlife agencies receive archery excise tax dollars in amounts determined by a formula that includes the number of licensed hunters (including all those who hunt with crossbows) and the area of the state. Regardless of what we think, the government treats crossbows like archery equipment. Now with compound bows - The International Olympic Committee doesn't recognize compounds as archery equipment. The PAN AMERICAN games don't recognize compounds as archery equipment. Neither does some of those ultra elitist, head up the butt, groups like Comptons. Why have crossbows been welcomed at NAA sanctioned shoots many years longer then the compound bow? Hmm? Several European countries don’t recognize any archery gear for hunting purpose. Thanks to bowhunters in England that complained that the crossbows were “inhumane” After a government study they ended up banning all archery hunting as “inhumane”. I don't think we want to head down that path.. A crossbow propels an arrow from the fastly forward moving string powered by a set of bent limbs. The trajectory of the arrow is VERY similar to that of an arrow launched by a compound bow. On the end of that arrow is the same broadhead that is used by any other hunting archer. That arrow kills that deer from lung collapse and blood loss. Sounds like archery to me.
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Post by speckle on Oct 20, 2010 8:55:10 GMT -5
Then hows come we cant shoot rifles in firearm season then? I want that to happen, its no different then you guys wanting crossbows in archery season
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Post by swilk on Oct 20, 2010 9:00:08 GMT -5
Are crossbows archery gear?
In the majority of the world the answer would........ At least you didnt call me names .....
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Post by Woody Williams on Oct 20, 2010 9:04:34 GMT -5
The real advantages are those things I mentioned, the ability to use it with no drawing motion in the presence of game, like a gun, and the concealability advantage, also like a gun. And of course the advantage in selling them to a public that doesn't want to be bothered by the need to learn to shoot the weapon, if they already know how to sight in and shoot a gun. Take it from someone that has actually hunted with a crossbow..
Drawing/Shooting in the Presence of Game The crossbow has a slight advantage in this area. The string is back in a firing position before game is approaching. How much of an advantage is debatable as several things come into play. 1) Being 20 to 25 foot up a tree when attempting to draw a compound bow will lessen a deer’s ability to see you. 2) Bows are usually 75 to 90 percent let off so one can draw on a deer much sooner and hold longer to make a killing shot with less worry about the deer seeing you. Mike Beatty drew and held on the new world record non-typical buck for a full 3 minute before making the shot. That bow was a 85% let off. There is a bow on the market that is 99% let off where one can draw the bow as soon as game is spotted and they can wait for however long it takes for that animal to approach the shooting area. 3) A number of hunters that use ground blinds are using a blind called Double Bull, “Doghouse”, etc that allows one to draw and shoot through a curtain and never be seen by the animal. 4) Most bowhunters learn when and when not to draw on a deer. IE – when it’s head is behind a bush or tree or allowing the deer to walk past them and shoot them quartering away. Both pieces of equipment have to be raised into a shooting position. Only the compound has to be drawn. That draw should be straight back and covered somewhat by the bow and bow quiver (if one is on the bow). That is unless the person drawing the bow seriously over-bowed and has to horse it back with great exaggerated movements.. Regardless of the perceived advantage of “not having to draw back a crossbow” the kill percentages are identical for compounds and crossbows. THAT is where the rubber meets the road.
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Post by Woody Williams on Oct 20, 2010 9:05:48 GMT -5
Then hows come we cant shoot rifles in firearm season then? I want that to happen, its no different then you guys wanting crossbows in archery season We can. I hunt, "shoot" and have killed deer with my "rifle".
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Post by firstwd on Oct 20, 2010 10:58:03 GMT -5
Archery equipment of firearm?
Does a purchaser have to fill out NICS paperwork to buy one?
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