|
Post by firstwd on Oct 20, 2010 11:00:31 GMT -5
Then hows come we cant shoot rifles in firearm season then? I want that to happen, its no different then you guys wanting crossbows in archery season Certain ones we can. Also, that restriction is based on performance.
|
|
|
Post by racktracker on Oct 20, 2010 11:26:24 GMT -5
Archery equipment of firearm? Does a purchaser have to fill out NICS paperwork to buy one? A couple more questions.. What Indiana deer tag does a hunter using a crossbow have to have? Archery or firearm? What Indiana deer tag has the handicapped crossbow hunters been using since 1986? Disregarding the latest "deer proposals", what season does the non-handicapped crossbower participate in?
|
|
|
Post by speckle on Oct 20, 2010 13:40:03 GMT -5
Then hows come we cant shoot rifles in firearm season then? I want that to happen, its no different then you guys wanting crossbows in archery season Certain ones we can. Also, that restriction is based on performance. Exactly thats why crossbows are not aloud. Certain bows are aloud.
|
|
|
Post by catahecassa on Oct 20, 2010 14:10:14 GMT -5
Certain ones we can. Also, that restriction is based on performance. Exactly thats why crossbows are not aloud. Certain bows are aloud. BOY, you sure can't argue with that 'logic' ...?! BTW - crossbows are so "a loud"!
|
|
|
Post by huxbux on Oct 20, 2010 15:36:32 GMT -5
Russ, some simply will not accept that others of us feel that a cross-bow is not archery gear. They ask why. They try and convince us that we are wrong. They offer whatever reasoning they can imagine to try and make us think they way they think. They call us names. The same could be said of those who support the other side of the argument too. I could care less whether anyone "accepts" a crossbow as archery gear. I don't believe anyone is demanding that the Pope & Young club begin accepting crossbow killed deer in the archery record books. The issue is only about providing for more opportunity. I'm curious as to why some are so dead set against their use. What do those who are opposed have to lose if they are adopted during the archery season? How will they be affected? For the record, I've been bowhunting for 30 years, don't own a crossbow, and don't intend to buy one whether they change the law or not.
|
|
|
Post by hornharvester on Oct 20, 2010 16:06:41 GMT -5
Russ, some simply will not accept that others of us feel that a cross-bow is not archery gear. They ask why. They try and convince us that we are wrong. They offer whatever reasoning they can imagine to try and make us think they way they think. They call us names. I'm curious as to why some are so dead set against their use. Huxbux, Answer to that question is post #22. h.h.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2010 19:03:29 GMT -5
Certain ones we can. Also, that restriction is based on performance. Exactly thats why crossbows are not aloud. Certain bows are aloud. Some bows are loud too.
|
|
|
Post by firstwd on Oct 20, 2010 21:43:03 GMT -5
Certain ones we can. Also, that restriction is based on performance. Exactly thats why crossbows are not aloud. Certain bows are aloud. I think I may have it figured out. The fight against crossbows is an attempt to protect the deer herd. Since most compounds have a longer effective range than most crossbows, they don't want wounded deer, or educated deer after the uneducated lazy nonpracticing gun shooter takes the ever common 100 yard shot with their 3 day old bow.
|
|
|
Post by Russ Koon on Oct 20, 2010 23:06:46 GMT -5
I didn't say they weren't "archery equipment". I said they were not "bows".
Both can be archery equipment while one is a bow and the other is not, in much the same way that both a rifle and a shotgun are firearms.
However, if we refer to a dictionary for our definitions rather than a catalog, we find archery defined as the use of a bow and arrow. Crossbow is defined as a device that uses a bow mounted athwart a stock, used for shooting bolts. Doesn't sound like the folks at Merriam-Webster agree with the folks at Cabela's.
These arguments may go back several thousand years, to when the first bowmen wanted to hunt during the atl-atl season, with the other spear-chuckers. The archers probably complained that the elitist spear-throwers were denying them the opportunity to hunt, but in actuality the archers were just trying to avoid having to develop the wrist action and hand-eye coordination required to bring down a mastodon with an atl-atl. The archers only had to point the sharp end of their stick at the critter and pull the string back and let go. They could even do the drawing several seconds before coming into full view of the game, instead of standing up to throw the spear, which was probably quite an advantage when hunting saber-tooths or cave bears, wasn't it Woody? 8^)
|
|
|
Post by racktracker on Oct 21, 2010 5:09:39 GMT -5
I didn't say they weren't "archery equipment". I said they were not "bows".
Both can be archery equipment while one is a bow and the other is not, in much the same way that both a rifle and a shotgun are firearms.
So when does this "bow season" start? I can only find "archery season" in the Hunting Guide.
However, if we refer to a dictionary for our definitions rather than a catalog, we find archery defined as the use of a bow and arrow. Crossbow is defined as a device that uses a bow mounted athwart a stock, used for shooting bolts. Doesn't sound like the folks at Merriam-Webster agree with the folks at Cabela's.
Gay in the dictionary used to mean happy too.
These arguments may go back several thousand years, to when the first bowmen wanted to hunt during the atl-atl season, with the other spear-chuckers. The archers probably complained that the elitist spear-throwers were denying them the opportunity to hunt, but in actuality the archers were just trying to avoid having to develop the wrist action and hand-eye coordination required to bring down a mastodon with an atl-atl. The archers only had to point the sharp end of their stick at the critter and pull the string back and let go. They could even do the drawing several seconds before coming into full view of the game, instead of standing up to throw the spear, which was probably quite an advantage when hunting saber-tooths or cave bears, wasn't it Woody? 8^)
Yes. time to put the arguing to bed and just go hunting with what ever archery equipment that we want to us. Me or anyone else hunting with a crossbow will not negatively effect you or any other hunter.
|
|
|
Post by Russ Koon on Oct 21, 2010 8:02:02 GMT -5
I think we agree then on about everything except where to get the definition of "archery", from a dictionary, where we have traditionally gone to find the definitions of our words since the first ones were compiled, or to our catalogs, another popular source for the information.
I admit to not having a late model dictionary in the house any more. Just seemed like it was quicker and easier to look up words online now.
I do have a number of catalogs covering general sporting goods and outdoors activities, like Cabela's and Redhead and Sportsman's Guide. They all tend to agree with the inclusion of crossbows in the archery sections.
My ARCHERY catalogs, on the other hand, Lancaster Archery Supply and Three Rivers, apparently are more in agreement with Merriam-Websters in their definition, as they contain no mention of the devices.
|
|
|
Post by tickman1961 on Oct 21, 2010 8:21:33 GMT -5
Pope and Young is the reason for the "elitist fear" of crossbows plain and simple.
Crossbow Policy Statement
The Pope and Young Club was founded to promote bowhunting and to record for posterity the outstanding examples of North American big game animals taken solely with the hunting bow.
For the purpose of the Pope and Young Club, a bow shall be defined as a longbow, recurve bow or compound bow that is hand-held and hand-drawn, and that has no mechanical device to enable the hunter to lock the bow at full or partial draw. Other than the energy stored by the drawn bow, no device to propel the arrow will be permitted.
Consequently, the Pope and Young Club does not consider the crossbow to be a hunting bow and will not accept any trophies collected by crossbow hunters. Further, the Pope and Young Club considers the use of crossbows during bowhunting seasons to be a serious threat to the future of bowhunting.
The Pope and Young Club therefore recommends the crossbow should not be considered for use in any bowhunting only season. Also, the Club strongly recommends that crossbow hunting be abolished from all existing bowhunting only seasons and the use of crossbows for hunting be restricted to firearms seasons.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2010 9:25:19 GMT -5
I didn't say they weren't "archery equipment". I said they were not "bows". Both can be archery equipment while one is a bow and the other is not, in much the same way that both a rifle and a shotgun are firearms. However, if we refer to a dictionary for our definitions rather than a catalog, we find archery defined as the use of a bow and arrow. Crossbow is defined as a device that uses a bow mounted athwart a stock, used for shooting bolts. Doesn't sound like the folks at Merriam-Webster agree with the folks at Cabela's. These arguments may go back several thousand years, to when the first bowmen wanted to hunt during the atl-atl season, with the other spear-chuckers. The archers probably complained that the elitist spear-throwers were denying them the opportunity to hunt, but in actuality the archers were just trying to avoid having to develop the wrist action and hand-eye coordination required to bring down a mastodon with an atl-atl. The archers only had to point the sharp end of their stick at the critter and pull the string back and let go. They could even do the drawing several seconds before coming into full view of the game, instead of standing up to throw the spear, which was probably quite an advantage when hunting saber-tooths or cave bears, wasn't it Woody? 8^) Russ, your starting to get rediculous with your bias. They are archery, because they shoot an arrow, commonly called a bolt because they are normally shorter and more spine than a common arrow. And they are bows becausee when you prepare it to shoot, it does bow(the limbs), and the bows limbs are made in the same fashion as the bows we all shoot. They are not firearms, because they propell a projecttle the same way a bow does, with stored energy and not "fire". As for going back several thousand years, again your analogy is screwed up. In that time, the grunts used long bows and the elitists backed them up with crossbows. Today, it's the elitiest using the longer bows. It'll save a lot of debate if you just come out of the closet and say that you don't like x-bows just because that's what you and yours do....just because. In reality every reason you can state for being against the use of crossbows can be disputed with facts. There are no negatives to allow their use in all of archery season except that you just don't want it to happen.
|
|
|
Post by trapperdave on Oct 21, 2010 9:28:20 GMT -5
they dont want crossbows in October because they dont want to share the woods...they want it exclusively. No other LOGICAL reason. GREED and, as you can tell by looking a couple inches to the left, Im a traditional bowhunter and have zero desire to own a crossbow myself But I welcome them alongside me anytime!
|
|
|
Post by thecommissioner on Oct 21, 2010 13:21:09 GMT -5
Consequently, the Pope and Young Club does not consider the crossbow to be a hunting bow and will not accept any trophies collected by crossbow hunters. Further, the Pope and Young Club considers the use of crossbows during bowhunting seasons to be a serious threat to the future of bowhunting.Whoop! There it is.
|
|
|
Post by Russ Koon on Oct 21, 2010 14:46:09 GMT -5
timex, I'm just the messenger in the case of the definition. Your argument is with the folks who wrote the dictionary. And, it would seem, also the folks at Lancaster Archery and Three Rivers, and the people involved with Pope and Young.
And I think you might want to look into the history a bit more before posting about it again. The crossbow wasn't invented until a few thousand years after the bow had come onto the scene and the atl-atl had pretty much departed.
trapperdave, as I stated above, I and most every bowhunter I've known over the last fifty years have been very happy to see any new bowhunters start in the sport. Most of us have helped some of them get started, at one time or another. Plenty of room for them in any woods I've hunted. Where on earth did you get the idea that we don't want more bowhunters? Completely illogical.
We would prefer that they actually be bowhunters, rather than people calling themselves that but carrying some other weapon into the woods.
But that is easy to remedy if they have made the wrong weapon selection. There are plenty of bows still on the racks at archery shops, and in pawn shops, and on e-bay, and in the classifieds. And plenty of us who would be glad to help them get set up and assist them with practicing. The more the merrier!
|
|
|
Post by catahecassa on Oct 21, 2010 15:18:05 GMT -5
trapperdave, as I stated above, I and most every bowhunter I've known over the last fifty years have been very happy to see any new bowhunters start in the sport. Most of us have helped some of them get started, at one time or another. Plenty of room for them in any woods I've hunted. Where on earth did you get the idea that we don't want more bowhunters? Completely illogical. We would prefer that they actually be bowhunters, rather than people calling themselves that but carrying some other weapon into the woods. But that is easy to remedy if they have made the wrong weapon selection. There are plenty of bows still on the racks at archery shops, and in pawn shops, and on e-bay, and in the classifieds. And plenty of us who would be glad to help them get set up and assist them with practicing. The more the merrier!
|
|
|
Post by firstwd on Oct 21, 2010 15:42:40 GMT -5
We would prefer that they actually be bowhunters, rather than people calling themselves that but carrying some other weapon into the woods. But that is easy to remedy if they have made the wrong weapon selection. There are plenty of bows still on the racks at archery shops, and in pawn shops, and on e-bay, and in the classifieds. And plenty of us who would be glad to help them get set up and assist them with practicing. The more the merrier! Yes, you prefer. But the regulations are clear. They must only be Archers to use an Archery license in the Archery season. That is the way it is for the late Archery season. That is the way it is for the Fall Turkey Archery season. There is no factual argument to keep it from being that way for the early deer Archery season. This comes down to a technical term argument. You want to say they are not bows, fine, I'll agree with you. They are a cross between a bow and a gun. Hence the name? Crossbow. But what they are, is Archery gear. Just like long bows are Archery gear, recurve bows are Archery gear, and compound bows are archery gear. What a certain segment of society commonly refer to them is irrelevant. This is the same argument as with the terms "antlers" and "horns". While a large and seeming growing segment of the population uses the term interchangeably, they are not.
|
|
|
Post by indianahick on Oct 21, 2010 15:47:35 GMT -5
Okay here is an idea that the bow only folks should be able to live with as it won't despoil their their eminence in the woods. Make a season for crossbow hunting. Last two weeks of October plus the first week of November. Hoity Toity bow hunters may participate if so inclined.
|
|
|
Post by Russ Koon on Oct 21, 2010 22:25:27 GMT -5
Indianahick, that's the solution a lot of us have been suggesting for a good while. Seems it's unacceptable to the folks who would rather pretend that crossbows are actually bows. I haven't figured out why.
Without that, I could support keeping it the way it is now. They are a weapon that's somewhere between a gun and a bow, for sure.
Range and power roughly same as a bow, accuracy about the same as a compound with sights in the hands of an average or slightly better archer, better for the beginner with either weapon.
But advantages in actual hunting use roughly the same as a ML. One shot, can be loaded on Monday and shot on Friday, from concealment such as a low bush or knee-high grass, or from a brushpile. No movement required except in aiming the weapon.
So it seems appropriate to have a season of its own that reflects the hybrid nature of the weapon, or a combination of inclusion into both bow and gun seasons that does the same.
I have no ill will towards the use of the crossbow by anyone who prefers them. To each his own. I've shot a few, and found them to be heavy, loud, and cimbersome compared to my compound. But if my shoulder had failed to improve, I'd probably have been getting a doctor's slip attesting to my impairment and checking out the available features and prices.
As to the harm done to bowhunters by the complete inclusion into archery seasons, I have to agree that it is probably minimal. Probably some reduction in the average degree of preparedness by a beginner. Only because the need for some pratice time and effort to become semi-proficient with a compound makes for a beginner who has made more of a commitment to the weapon than he would have needed to make with a gun or a crossbow.
That's not saying he would necessarily be less committed or prepared, just that without the need to practice and learn the craft, some of the newcomers would be less ready than the current crop of archery newbies.
Most would put in the effort needed to go into the woods ready, but some wouldn't.
Aside from that, the only argument against them that I heard that seemed plausible was that the increased efficiency of the weapon would result in shorter seasons for all archers. That doesn't seem to have been the case in the areas where they have been included, so it appears to have been unfounded.
My main objections lie less in the actual inclusion than in the process by which it is being promoted. The consistent accusations that archers are somehow trying to "save their bucks and their woods" for themselves, for instance, when I know perfectly well how hard most archers work to promote the sport and recruit new hunters to join us in those woods after those deer. And the assertions that a crossbow is just a bow held horizontally, when it's perfectly obvious that there are other differences, some advantageous and some not.
I do agree with the earlier post that pointed out that it's not, or shouldn't be, a competition between us as archers or crossbowmen or gunners. Our competition should be between us and the deer we are after. The whole competition thing and scorekeeping has been a very unfortunate development in hunting, in my opinion.
Can't eat horns. Just hunt.
|
|