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Post by oldhoyt on Aug 31, 2012 8:34:43 GMT -5
Good info. I also have nor experience with the software.
FYI, the case volume that was required was for a fired case, not yet resized, with spent primer, filled to top of neck with the meniscus removed so the surface of the water is straight across the case mouth.
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Post by cedarthicket on Aug 31, 2012 10:45:15 GMT -5
Interesting. I would have thought that bullet shape or seating depth of the bullet would also be required. In other words, with a given cartridge overall length, how much of that total water volume is displaced by the seated bullet? This could easily affect the "usable" powder volume inside the case and potentially make a significant difference regarding whether the powder charge selected would be compressed or not. Maybe the software assumes some kind of "standard" bullet shape and construction (for example, typical spitzer flat base jacketed lead core vs. all copper, etc.).
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Post by oldhoyt on Aug 31, 2012 12:40:40 GMT -5
Right, those things were also considered. The software compensated for lost case volume for a given case length, bullet and OAL.
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Post by cedarthicket on Aug 31, 2012 20:04:05 GMT -5
Following is some updated information on the .358 Hoosier for those who like to reload and/or are interested in calculated exterior ballistics, including downrange velocity, energy, and trajectory. One easy to use online source (interactive) of exterior ballistics calculations is that hosted by the maker of Hornady bullets. It has a default “basic” as well as a more “advanced” version. www.hornady.com/ballistics-resource/ballistics-calculatorAssuming you will use standard units of measure (not metric) and the “basic” version, please specify: BULLET used, its ballistic coefficient, muzzle velocity in ft/sec, and weight in grains. MAXIMUM RANGE (in yards) for which you want calculations done. INTERVAL (in yards) for which you want calculations displayed. DISTANCE (in yards) at which you want the rifle zeroed. SIGHT HEIGHT (in inches) above the centerline of the bore. (This is usually about 1.5 inches for scoped rifles.) Following are some bullets found to be quite useful in the .358 Hoosier, including the description, weight, and advertised ballistic coefficient (BC): Standard BulletsHornady 180 gr. Interlock spitzer (BC = .248) Hornady 200 gr. Interlock spitzer (BC = .282) Hornady 200 gr. FTX spitzer (BC = .300) Premium Bullets (about 50 cents more per bullet) Barnes 180 gr. TTSX FB spitzer (BC = .295) Nosler 200 gr. Accubond BT spitzer (BC = .365) As noted in the introductory information for the .358 Hoosier, www.huntingindiana.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=guns&action=display&thread=40605a muzzle velocity of about 2650 ft/sec can be safely obtained with 180 grain bullets. And, a muzzle velocity of about 2525 ft/sec can be safely obtained with 200 grain bullets. Of course, this is with selected powders and charge weights. Have fun making some very easy ballistic comparisons as different values of velocity, bullet weight, distance zeroed, etc. are made!
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Post by cedarthicket on Oct 1, 2012 19:02:01 GMT -5
The September issue of Indiana Outdoor News contained an article on the .358 Hoosier. This tabloid/newspaper is dropped off at some of the sporting goods stores in the state, but I do not know which ones. By now the free issues may be gone. Maybe Indiana Game & Fish would do an article on .358 wildcats legal in rifles for deer hunting in Indiana?
However, a “permanent” reference on the .358 Hoosier that is “hot off the press” is the new 13th Edition of Cartridges of the World. It contains most of a page on the .358 Hoosier (page 221) in Chapter 4 -- Wildcat Cartridges. Included are limited loading data – which are MAXIMUM loads, even though the write up does not specifically state that. (Read Disclaimer and Warning on page 6.) Reloaders should NOT start out using MAXIMUM loads. It is often recommended that they start at a listed Starting Load, or about 5 percent below maximum loads, and carefully work up only as pressure signs indicate it is OK.
Chapter 4 on wildcats starts on page 165 and the introduction is worth reading. Also, a good read is a special feature on wildcats (pp. 448-452). These pages also include a few references to Indiana .358 wildcats.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2012 20:00:11 GMT -5
Who's got Encore barrels ready to go?
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Post by Woody Williams on Oct 1, 2012 20:20:33 GMT -5
We got to meet Jay and Alex Brown at the youth hunt. The Browns know their .358 Hoosier well...
Interesting discussion...
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Post by cedarthicket on Dec 3, 2012 19:24:18 GMT -5
As posted earlier (Reply #44), the latest edition (13th) of Cartridges of the World (COTW) includes some information on MAXIMUM loads for the .358 Hoosier. Please note the following additional information:
Bullet = 180 gr. Hornady SP/SSP #3505 (BC = 0.248) Powder = 42.6 gr. Reloader 7 (MAXIMUM) Velocity = 2690 ft/sec Energy = 2892 ft pounds Cartridge overall length (COL) = 2.50 inches Case = made from .358 Winchester brass
Bullet = 180 gr. Barnes TTSX FB #35830 (BC = 0.295) Powder = 43.0 gr. Reloader 10X (MAXIMUM) Velocity = 2640 ft/sec Energy = 2785 ft pounds COL = 2.73 inches Case = from .358 Winchester
Bullet = 200 gr. Hornady PSP #3510 (BC = 0.282) Powder = 43.0 gr. Reloader 10X (MAXIMUM) Velocity = 2550 ft/sec Energy = 2887 ft pounds COL = 2.55 inches Case = from .358 Winchester
CAUTION: The format of the publication (COTW) allows only limited loading data to be given. Missing is information very important to the person handloading the cartridge, such as cartridge overall length (COL), cases used, primers, and barrel length. (The above loads were developed using Winchester standard large rifle primers and fired in a Marlin XS7 rifle sporting a 22-inch Shilen barrel with a 1 in 14 twist.) Also, when loading cartridges with heavy powder charges the author normally taps the case gently on the loading bench as the weighed powder charge is poured into the case mouth through a small funnel. This is done to settle the heavier powder charges and AVOID compressed loads. It is again emphasized that the loads given above are considered MAXIMUM loads, even though COTW does not specifically state that. (Read the COTW Disclaimer and Warning on page 6.) Handloaders should NOT start out using MAXIMUM loads. It is often recommended that they start at a listed Starting Load, or about 5 PERCENT BELOW maximum loads, and carefully work up in small increments ONLY if pressure signs indicate it is OK.
Please note that the author is not specifically recommending any particular load. But, he is giving some of his observations and thinking. The individual handloader and shooter must realize that there are inherent risks in those activities that are beyond the control of the author and that the author assumes no liability whatsoever for use of the information posted.
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Post by Rifleman on Dec 4, 2012 5:01:35 GMT -5
CT thanks for sharing, this is likely the best resource currently available for loading info on the 358 Hoosier.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2012 9:51:00 GMT -5
Wondering if there are any other bullet choices not considered yet, such as using some if these 175gr. PR bullets. www.prbullet.com/pts.htmOr even hardcast pistol bullets. Mainly interested in the Hoosier velocities?
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Post by Rifleman on Dec 4, 2012 11:28:05 GMT -5
I was looking at the Remington Core Lokt 150gr that they load in the 35 Remington, however I could not find a source for just the bullets, only loaded ammunition. I thought it would make a fine bullet for the Hoosier although one might have to load it down some.
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Post by cedarthicket on Dec 6, 2012 20:32:15 GMT -5
For those interested, following is some more information on the .358 Hoosier that was posted on another site: The .358 Hoosier case capacity is somewhat less than the .358 Winchester (.358 Win) case, of course. However, the shoulder is pushed back noticeably less than the overall shortening of the case, resulting in a little shorter neck than the parent case and retaining a considerable amount of the original powder capacity. Back in 1955, when the .358 Win was introduced, there was not nearly the wide variety of powders available for reloading as today. Also, Winchester originally loaded the cartridge to a little higher advertised velocity than today, for example 2530 versus 2490 ft/sec for the 200 gr. bullet. A 250 gr. bullet was originally shown at 2250 ft/sec. That bullet option was later dropped by the factory. Even back in the early years some reloading manuals showed several .358 Win loads that exceeded published Winchester factory velocities. For example, in the 1st edition (1965) of Cartridges of the World (COTW) it states that “performance can be improved a little by handloading.” COTW goes on to list loads giving 2580 and 2560 ft/sec for a 200 gr. bullet and 2390 and 2400 ft/sec for a 250 gr. bullet. That seems to show significant improvement in performance by using powders different than what Winchester used, and perhaps still uses. Pressures are not given and the most recent COTW does not list those loads. Instead, COTW now gives loads similar to Winchester factory loads from information supplied by Hornady, Speer, and Sierra. The 25th (1986) edition of the Hodgdon manual shows a .358 Win maximum load giving 2374 ft/sec for a 250 gr. bullet at a pressure of 52,200 Copper Units of Pressure (CUP). The current Hodgdon powder website (for Hodgdon, IMR, & Winchester powders only) ( www.hodgdon.com/) shows maximum .358 Win loads giving 2565 and 2630 ft/sec for the 200 gr. Hornady PSP bullet, and 2257 and 2260 ft/sec for the 250 gr. Nosler Partition bullet. The website shows the above loads with pressures in the range of 50,500 to 51,800 CUP. Today there are many different powders that did not exist in 1955. Many have filled large gaps (niches) in powder burn rates that existed back then. Some current cartridge manufacturers, such as Hornady, have taken advantage of these new powders (and new pressure measuring technology) to boost velocities of some of the older cartridges, such as the venerable .30-06. And, they still keep their new factory ammunition within industry accepted pressure limits. Similarly, handloaders can safely gain several more feet per second from many cartridges, wildcats as well as factory, than was possible several years ago. It is now widely accepted that many of the smaller capacity cases are indeed very efficient. Combine the smaller case capacity, improved powders, and a relatively large caliber, and you can achieve some pretty respectable velocities with a given bullet weight at safe pressures. I think we live in a Golden Age of Reloading.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2012 19:23:27 GMT -5
I've been looking for loading data for the Hoosier. I have found some, and don't mind sharing it, if you need the same thing. You can send me a PM and I'll cut and paste what I have back to you, but you have to agree to not hold me or the source responsible for any of the content that you recieve. Plus you should never start with any of the max. loads as listed.
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Post by cedarthicket on Jan 5, 2013 19:55:21 GMT -5
While I was doing early development and chronographing work on the Hoosier wildcat I used cases formed almost exclusively from Winchester factory .358 Winchester brass. It was the easiest to work with, did not require neck annealing or outside neck turning, already had a ”.358” in the head stamp, and was the logical parent case for the wildcat. As an experiment I took one case formed from .358 Winchester brass and loaded it many times to use for a fouling shot as I tested many different bullets and powder charges. Would you believe that I have reloaded that one case 35 times! Some of the reloading involved neck sizing only and some involved full length resizing. I did not keep track of how many of each. However, I believe the time has come to retire the case. Now it does not seem to grip the bullets quite as tightly as originally, and the primers are not held as tightly, but they do not fall out! I have never annealed the neck of that case and the neck has never split.
Originally I gave a recommendation that handloaders stick to factory .358 Winchester brass to form cases for the .358 Hoosier. Further, I warned against using military brass in 7.62 NATO and other brass made to military specifications (milspec) because that brass is typically thicker and heavier than the commercial .308 Winchester brass. Cases formed from military and milspec brass would likely have thicker necks and reduced powder capacity, which could lead to excessive pressures for a given load. But, cases formed from most commercial .308 Winchester would probably be OK. However, there could be some extra work in expanding the neck of the parent cases.
During chronographing work I also used for fouling shots a case formed from the Winchester brand of factory .308 Winchester brass. The resulting case worked just fine. I annealed the new neck. However, I probably did not need to anneal because all of the Hoosier neck came from the .308 Winchester neck and shoulder, both of which I believe are already factory annealed. [You may have seen the annealing “colors” on 7.62 NATO and .30-06 military brass just below the shoulder/body junction.] The annealing “colors” are polished out on commercial brass, but the brass is properly annealed. I have reloaded that case 10 times and it is still going strong.
Also, as a result of the seasonal short supply of commercial .358 Winchester brass, as well as its relatively higher price, several handloaders have started using the Winchester brand of .308 Winchester brass to make their Hoosier cases. The commercial supplier of .358 Hoosier ammo to A. J. Brown Arms is also using the Winchester brand of .308 Winchester brass for much of his ammo. I do not know if the supplier has tried other brands of commercial .308 Winchester brass.
This would also be a good time to note that handloaders forming their own .358 Hoosier brass should first cut the parent case back to an overall length of about 1.80 inches BEFORE running it into the Hornady brand of .358 Hoosier full length resizing die. [Otherwise you may ruin the case inside the Hornady die because of its limited interior space.] Then trim the formed case to proper length and chamfer the case mouth. You are ready to prime and load.
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Post by oldhoyt on Jan 7, 2013 17:51:16 GMT -5
The 180 gr Hornady SSP worked well for me this year. My load was 45 gr of Accurate 2230 and Winchester primers. Velocity should be around 2400 fps. I did not shoot through heavy bone, but a shot to the ribs didn't cause any bullet fragmentation that I could see. More testing needed, but that will have to wait til next year I guess.
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Post by cedarthicket on Jan 7, 2013 19:48:23 GMT -5
Congratulations on your deer! Glad to hear the 180 grain Hornady SP/SSP bullet worked well for you this season. Was the bullet a complete pass through? How far was the deer from you? (By the way, my chronographing shows a charge of 45 grains of Accurate 2230 will push the 180 grain Hornady bullet to around 2600 fps from a 22-inch barrel.)
I am not surprised that your examination did not indicate bullet fragmentation, especially if the only bones you hit were ribs. That bullet is constructed just like the 200 grain Hornady Interlock spitzer. A couple years ago I used the 180 grain SSP to take a deer on a depredation permit. It was a frontal, slightly quartering, shot at around 100 yards. The bullet with a muzzle velocity or around 2500 fps hit the neck just in front of the near shoulder just as the deer lowered its head. The bullet shattered the spine and lodged just under the skin near the last rib. After penetrating a few inches of spine the recovered bullet showed a near perfect mushroom and retained most of its weight.
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Post by oldhoyt on Jan 8, 2013 10:22:28 GMT -5
The bullet did pass through. The deer was an adult doe, around 120 lbs. No shoulder bones were hit and the exit hole was about twice the diameter of the entrance hole. The shot was broadside at 75 yards give or take.
I'm glad to hear the bullet can take velocities around 2500. Others have told me that this specific bullet has been known to fragment when pushed over 2300 or so.
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Post by trappertony on Jan 13, 2013 11:45:49 GMT -5
what is the difference in the 358 hoosier and the 358 wssm
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Post by cedarthicket on Jan 13, 2013 14:40:35 GMT -5
The .358 Hoosier and the .358 WSSM have nearly the same powder capacity and bullet velocity, with a slight edge going to the .358 WSSM. Significant differences include:
The .358 Hoosier is based upon a .358 Winchester or commercial .308 Winchester case shortened to 1.800 inches. The .358 WSSM is based upon a fatter and less common Winchester Super Short Magnum case shortened to 1.625 inches.
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Post by cedarthicket on Feb 1, 2013 19:48:07 GMT -5
****** The following reply was originally posted on another Hunting Indiana thread (358 Hoosier Chamber Dimensions). However, because so many people continue to look at this thread for info on the .358 Hoosier it is also posted here. (In the last 2 months there have been nearly 1050 additional “views” of this thread that was originally started 13 months ago on January 2, 2012. ******
In designing the cartridge chamber reamer the free bore/lead and throat dimensions were chosen so that the loaded cartridges would chamber with readily available bullets of 180 and 200 grains weight, have adequate bullet seating depth to give good neck tension, and maximize the available powder space. Also, the loaded cartridges had to meet an overall length of less than 2.80 inches so they would feed properly from common short-action bolt rifles. The resulting design is somewhat of a compromise, but it allows excellent performance of all existing 180 and 200 grain bullets.
Bullets that I successfully used in chronograph work included the 180 gr. Hornady SSP Interlock, the 200 gr. Hornady SP Interlock, the Barnes 180 gr. TTSX, and the Nosler 200 gr. Accubond bullet. Both Hornady bullets have a relatively short spire point, whereas the Barnes and Nosler bullets have much longer, more streamlined noses. The Barnes bullet is all copper (less dense than lead) and is much longer that the Hornady bullet of the same weight. The Nosler bullet is of conventional lead core design, but includes a very long pointed nose and a boat tail. Hence, it is much longer than the Hornady bullet of the same weight. The chamber reamer dimensions selected result in a design that can pretty well accommodate nearly any jacketed .358 rifle bullet of 180 to 200 grains from any major manufacturer. You would, of course, need to experiment to see what the optimum overall length of the loaded cartridge is.
You could use somewhat heavier bullets than 200 grains. However, you begin to face a tradeoff situation in that the bullet base must be seated so deeply that it may significantly intrude on available powder space. Heavier bullets may also warrant a slower burning powder. I chose not to go that route, believing that available bullets weighing 180 to 200 grains would do just fine for whatever big game animals I would likely hunt, including deer and elk. I especially like the Barnes TTSX bullets and the Nosler Accubond bullets for elk.
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