Canned Hunts

[Decatur]

www.ohio.com/mld/journalgazette/news/local/13644227.htm?template=contentModules/printstory.jsp

[kevin1]

The people of Indiana , along with our DNR , have made their feelings abundantly clear on the subject , it's just a damned shame that some of our so called legislators have allowe greed to blind them . Maybe they need to get into a new line of work .

[trapperdave]

greed is what draws them to politics in the first place

[spike]

I bet if they were voting on ending canned hunting the vote would have been 12 yes and 0 no's. But they were voting on Hunting preserves. 11 to 1 makes it pretty clear they have seen through the smoke screen and see the truth and facts. They know that most people support property rights and the right to hunt on a high fence preserve.

[DEERTRACKS]

Welcome spike.

[hoyt1166]

spike said:

I bet if they were voting on ending canned hunting the vote would have been 12 yes and 0 no's. But they were voting on Hunting preserves. 11 to 1 makes it pretty clear they have seen through the smoke screen and see the truth and facts. They know that most people support property rights and the right to hunt on a high fence preserve.

Just wondering Spike are you more concerned about individual property rights or protecting an investment? Now, I'm a firm believer in individual rights except when those rights affect the majority. When these hunting preserves can 100% guarantee that there will be no deer able to come into contact with the wild I would consider supporting them. Until then I will never support them. Because when they do, your individual property rights have then infringed upon the masses.

[drs]

kevin1 said:

The people of Indiana , along with our DNR , have made their feelings abundantly clear on the subject , it's just a danged shame that some of our so called legislators have allowe greed to blind them . Maybe they need to get into a new line of work .

Another case of "Politiics as usual" here in Indiana!.....BIG MONEY WINS!!!.....We ALL Lose!!

[spike]

Hoyt- If individual property rights affect the neighbor or majority then I support you 100%. In this case there is NO threat to the majority. If there were any facts to support the argument there was I would join your fight. Call the Indiana State Board of Animal Health. They have nothing to lose but their jobs if they do not tell the truth. They will confirm the preserves are not a threat to you, your neighbor or the majority when it comes to CWD. Just look at the multiple States with CWD that have NEVER had a preserve or deer farm. Does'nt that make you question all the rediculous hysteria.

Like Kevin tried to say, the majority of people of Indiana, the sportsmen and the experts support private property rights, hunting, economic develpoement and common sense. That is why this issue is progressing. Just like the 28 other States have taken measure to do the same.

[hoyt1166]

spike said:

Hoyt- If individual property rights affect the neighbor or majority then I support you 100%. In this case there is NO threat to the majority. If there were any facts to support the argument there was I would join your fight. Call the Indiana State Board of Animal Health. They have nothing to lose but their jobs if they do not tell the truth. They will confirm the preserves are not a threat to you, your neighbor or the majority when it comes to CWD. Just look at the multiple States with CWD that have NEVER had a preserve or deer farm. Does'nt that make you question all the rediculous hysteria.

Like Kevin tried to say, the majority of people of Indiana, the sportsmen and the experts support private property rights, hunting, economic develpoement and common sense. That is why this issue is progressing. Just like the 28 other States have taken measure to do the same.

The surveys I've seen indicate exactly the opposite of what you claim Spike. In fact, I've yet to run into one hunter that I personally know that support your argument. Maybe I run in the wrong circles.

Spike, you still haven't answered the question if you are more concerned with protecting individual rights than you are with protecting an investment.

Can you guarantee that your herd or any other herd in captivity will never come into contact with a deer from the state? I don't think you can. You don't have a foolproof way to do it. Until you can, I'll never support your position. It's not a personal thing Spike. It's a case where I believe that the interest of the state's natural resources comes before an individual. I would be in favor of some type of program from the state that would compensate deer farmers and fake hunting places for the investment that they've made to their operations. I do believe that it would be cheaper for the state to buy those places out than to fight CWD. Would you be willing to be financially responsible to the state to pay the costs of eradicating CWD as well as reimbursing for the loss of natural resources should CWD ever came to Indiana and it was proven to have come from one of the deer farms? Be aware that it cost Wisconsin over $100 million just in the first year after CWD and they spend 50% of their natural resources funds to fight it now. That's a risk I'm not willing to take and thus, my support will never be for these places. Nor will my support be for the elected individuals who do support them. I will spread the word in my community to oust these individuals. Of course, in my neck of the woods, it's pretty easy as the man that was held up as the poster boy for these places has been convicted of numerous crimes was from my neck of the woods.

[spike]

Hoyt- I made it clear I would never take personal gain over the rights of the majority. If Your argument was used the State should have to place a second fence around the preserve to "protect" them from the wild deer. Remember- Over 90% of all CWD infected deer came from the wild and are in the wild. I do not want to pi**you off but your views have been derived from information not supported by science, facts or common sense. How much has Illinois spent on CWD ? They handled this like they should. Wisconsin is an extreme case where a radical blew it out of proportion. Since then the State has passsed legislation to protect the preseves and sportsmen. All these things happen for a reason- When the experts disclose the truth to the people making decisions they go in favor of the preserves. It is blantantly obvious the CWD scare has run its course. People have heard about it for years and years and the only negative affect is a handfull of people overreacting. The health of the herd has not been affected by CWD in the united States. It takes radical men to interferre to even make it an issue.

I understand your concern- I too would be as ademate as you if your feelings were backed by facts. But it simply is not so.

[TagTeamHunter]

Call your state Rep and voice your concerns about this issue. I spoke to a state Rep once and he stated that if he gets 2 or more calls on an issue it is a landslide. Personally I have not decided if I am for or against. But this is the fundamental issue in a Democracy: the rights of individual versus the rights of the majority (or public good). Personally I could not hunt in a “High Fence Preserve” then again I couldn’t see myself using a Savage “smokeless” muzzleloader with a High Power scope and shooting a deer 150 yards away. Do I fault people for doing it, No! My best friend hunts with a Savage, “to each his own”.

What concerns me even more is that issues like this have “hunters” fighting each other. If I was a conspiracy nut, I would think that the Anti’s started this Bill to get “us” to fight each other. Divide and concern.

[911]

This is not hunters fighting each other those who kill in preserves are not hunters.

[Decatur]

911 said:

This is not hunters fighting each other those who kill in preserves are not hunters.

You hit the nail right on the head there!

[TagTeamHunter]

This is not hunters fighting each other those who kill in preserves are not hunters.

Lets hope the rest of the none hunting public views it the same way.

[hoyt1166]

spike said:

Hoyt- I made it clear I would never take personal gain over the rights of the majority. If Your argument was used the State should have to place a second fence around the preserve to "protect" them from the wild deer. Remember- Over 90% of all CWD infected deer came from the wild and are in the wild. I do not want to pi**you off but your views have been derived from information not supported by science, facts or common sense. How much has Illinois spent on CWD ? They handled this like they should. Wisconsin is an extreme case where a radical blew it out of proportion. Since then the State has passsed legislation to protect the preseves and sportsmen. All these things happen for a reason- When the experts disclose the truth to the people making decisions they go in favor of the preserves. It is blantantly obvious the CWD scare has run its course. People have heard about it for years and years and the only negative affect is a handfull of people overreacting. The health of the herd has not been affected by CWD in the united States. It takes radical men to interferre to even make it an issue.

I understand your concern- I too would be as ademate as you if your feelings were backed by facts. But it simply is not so.

My viewpoints are not clouded by personal investment. My views are based on the information I have gleaned from the Bellar trial. That man was lifted up as the poster boy for operations much like yours. He had absolutely no concern for anything other than the almighty dollar. You may not be like Russ Bellar but I have no doubts that there are plenty of others out there just like him. Still, you cannot guarantee that there wouldn't be an outbreak of CWD on your farm and you cannot guarantee that you can always keep your herd enclosed.

The issues as I see them stand as this:

While my views may not be based on science or common sense as you state, my views are based on a past history of operations like yours that have occurred close to home. Bellar is only one example. I'm sure there are many more. Additionally, I have a personal bias against these places because I don't consider them hunting. In fact, there are many who have used operations like yours and termed it killing more than hunting. It goes against any idea of fair chase. To be quite honest, I would even say that those who own these may call themselves hunters but that would be hypocritical. You've stated that you built your place because you got tired of seeing deer less than 4 years of age being shot in the wild. You've replaced what you consider sportsmanship with even less sportsmanship. However, back to the original argument. You claim that I'm misguided by bad science, lack of common sense and radicalism. That may or may not be true. What I'm not guided by is a personal financial investment. You are. Regardless of your arguments, that will always be seen as influencing your judgement. Be it right or wrong, it's out there for every one to see. What I'd like to hear is that as an operation, you will sign something that would make you financially responsible to re-imburse the state should there be an outbreak of CWD and the investigation tied it to one of these farms. Would you be willing to put yourself out there financially to back up your claims? Would the owners of the other farms be willing to do so? Please note that this is not personal Spike. I couldn't care less if it was my mother who was investing in these canned hunt operations. I'd fight her tooth and nail as well.

[kevin1]

spike said:

Like Kevin tried to say, the majority of people of Indiana, the sportsmen and the experts support private property rights, hunting, economic development and common sense. That is why this issue is progressing. Just like the 28 other States have taken measure to do the same.

I didn't say anything of the kind .
In every poll of public opinion that I've ever seen , nearly every person whom I've ever asked , and any DNR person you care to name the sentiment toward deer procurers was resoundingly negative toward fenced slaughter of any animal . I don't know where you got that 28 state figure either , 19 other states besides Indiana have banned fenced sport slaughter because of the CWD issue as well as overwhelming public disgust with those abattoirs , and many others are considering doing the same .

Welcome to the site , but don't put words in my mouth , I don't appreciate that .

[lugnutz]

hoyt1166 said:

spike said:

Hoyt- I made it clear I would never take personal gain over the rights of the majority. If Your argument was used the State should have to place a second fence around the preserve to "protect" them from the wild deer. Remember- Over 90% of all CWD infected deer came from the wild and are in the wild. I do not want to pi**you off but your views have been derived from information not supported by science, facts or common sense. How much has Illinois spent on CWD ? They handled this like they should. Wisconsin is an extreme case where a radical blew it out of proportion. Since then the State has passsed legislation to protect the preseves and sportsmen. All these things happen for a reason- When the experts disclose the truth to the people making decisions they go in favor of the preserves. It is blantantly obvious the CWD scare has run its course. People have heard about it for years and years and the only negative affect is a handfull of people overreacting. The health of the herd has not been affected by CWD in the united States. It takes radical men to interferre to even make it an issue.

I understand your concern- I too would be as ademate as you if your feelings were backed by facts. But it simply is not so.

My viewpoints are not clouded by personal investment. My views are based on the information I have gleaned from the Bellar trial. That man was lifted up as the poster boy for operations much like yours. He had absolutely no concern for anything other than the almighty dollar. You may not be like Russ Bellar but I have no doubts that there are plenty of others out there just like him. Still, you cannot guarantee that there wouldn't be an outbreak of CWD on your farm and you cannot guarantee that you can always keep your herd enclosed.

The issues as I see them stand as this:

While my views may not be based on science or common sense as you state, my views are based on a past history of operations like yours that have occurred close to home. Bellar is only one example. I'm sure there are many more. Additionally, I have a personal bias against these places because I don't consider them hunting. In fact, there are many who have used operations like yours and termed it killing more than hunting. It goes against any idea of fair chase. To be quite honest, I would even say that those who own these may call themselves hunters but that would be hypocritical. You've stated that you built your place because you got tired of seeing deer less than 4 years of age being shot in the wild. You've replaced what you consider sportsmanship with even less sportsmanship. However, back to the original argument. You claim that I'm misguided by bad science, lack of common sense and radicalism. That may or may not be true. What I'm not guided by is a personal financial investment. You are. Regardless of your arguments, that will always be seen as influencing your judgement. Be it right or wrong, it's out there for every one to see. What I'd like to hear is that as an operation, you will sign something that would make you financially responsible to re-imburse the state should there be an outbreak of CWD and the investigation tied it to one of these farms. Would you be willing to put yourself out there financially to back up your claims? Would the owners of the other farms be willing to do so? Please note that this is not personal Spike. I couldn't care less if it was my mother who was investing in these canned hunt operations. I'd fight her tooth and nail as well.

Hey hoyt if i put up a fence around my 300 arcres would this be a crime?

If not, whats the difference if they put one up and i hunt in it?

If yes, how the heck am i gonna keep them pesky trespassers of my property, the ones that keep killin the deer that i try to manage?

Hoyt, hopefully you'll be able to change my mind!

[hoyt1166]

Well, lug, your questions are many and I'll try to answer as best I can. First of all, if you put up a fence that is intended to keep deer within the enclosure, you'd better make sure each and every wild deer is out of that enclosure. When that is accomplished, then you won't have to worry about managing any deer on your property. If the fence is a fence that is meant to keep out people and the deer can travel unhindered off and on to your property, then there is no problem. The problems I see it with the deer farms or canned hunting is this: first, they have to purchase these deer. That isn't a problem really except that since a deer has to be tested for CWD by taking a sample of the brain is there really any way of knowing whether any of the deer they are buying are carrying CWD? (Now, I'll admit as I've recently begun taking up the campaign against this, that I'm not as versed as others on here about all of this. If those who know more about it than I could chime in if I'm wrong, I'd be grateful). Anyways, what you have inside these enclosures (and especially since they're proposing moving the size down to 80 acre enclosures) is an extremely high deer density situation. What this does is increase the close contact with other deer whether it's feeding or anything else. Now, say because of this close contact, an outbreak of CWD occurs. These canned hunting locations have no guarantee that their herds won't come into contact with the state's herd. So, let's say that there is an outbreak and then a tree falls on one of the fences or worse yet, someone from the Animal Liberation Front decides to release all of the deer into the wild. Who would be financially responsible for the hundreds of millions of dollars that would be spent to try and eradicate the disease? In the first year after Wisconsin's CWD outbreak, they spent over $100 million and now spend 50% of their Natural Resources fundings to do the same. Do you think the canned hunts or deer farms would pick up the tab? No, so that means the taxpayers pick up the tab. That's where I feel the individual rights infringe upon the rights of the masses. Now, here's my personal opinion. Canned hunting is not hunting. When you put up a fence, you eliminate all sense of fair chase. It's not like hunting in the wild at all. It's a way to kill something without hunting at all. If you've got a big buck within an 80 acre enclosure, you really don't have to do any hunting at all. You know exactly where that deer is. He's somewhere in that 80 acre enclosure. Now, not all operations will do tis but I'd be willing their are a lot who do but consider this example: A guy pays $15,000 to harvest a B&C type buck. Do you think that they're going to let that guy leave without harvesting a B&C type buck? They'll do whatever it takes to have him harvest that buck even if it means walking inside that enclosure and pushing that deer past that hunter. It could even mean drugging that deer, putting it in a front-loader and dropping him off in front of that hunter. Imagine if you will a pheasant preserve that puts up a net and fence so that the pheasants couldn't fly from the danger. Could you imagine how that would look to the non-hunting public? It would be a bloodbath. See to me, this comes down to which sword you're willing to fall on. Some would have me believe that since it has the word hunt in it, I should support canned hunting as it would lead to the end of all hunting if canned hunting weren't allowed. But, this is a sword I won't fall on. It doesn't meet the criteria I set for hunting which includes fair chase. I choose not to be associated with this type of hunting (I call it convenience killing). It's not natural and it's not right to me. Some will make the argument that many just don't have the time to hunt and this fills a niche. I say hogwash. I went from a job where I was able to bowhunt every single day of the biwhunting season to a job where I didn't even get to go bowhunting at all last year and only went out with a ML 4 times. I was still able to harvest a buck and if I hadn't, that would have been my decision based upon the career I chose to support my family. I think I fit perfectly into the category of convenience killers. But, my hunting ethics won't allow me to do it. It's really no different to me than walking up to the saltwater aquarium at Red Lobster and choosing the biggest, fattest lobster I can. I sure wouldn't take my picture with that fat lobster. Now, these are my personal opinions. Take them for what they're worth. But, you asked so I told you.

[gundude]

Hoyt,
You need to get over to COLTS HQ right away. They will be looking for a field goal kicker and you just just kicked a beauty right between the uprights..........

GOOD JOB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fight on!

[hoyt1166]

Thanks Gundude. I am however, a Steelers fan. I think Vannder yank did a wonderful job. (You just had to know there was something wrong about me, didn't ya?)