Some help from any chemists out there.
Aug 2, 2023 15:15:53 GMT -5
Woody Williams and greghopper like this
Post by esshup on Aug 2, 2023 15:15:53 GMT -5
I have a VERY lead fouled shotgun barrel. I'm talking about BADLY lead fouled from shooting lead shot NOT enclosed in a plastic shot cup. The choke tube had roughly .020"-.030" lead built up in it. While I got 90% of that out by a combination of ultrasonic and mechanical cleaning (still working on the rest) the shotgun barrel (semi-auto) has to have the same amount of lead build up in it; I can't fit it in the ultrasonic tank AND I don't think I can do all of the mechanical cleaning that I did with a <3" choke tube.
I have an Outers Foul-Out system. Basically it's a reverse plating system, where you plug the end of the barrel, put this stainless steel rod inside the barrel and isolate the stainless steel rod from touching the barrel by placing these O-Rings on it, pouring a solution into the barrel, connecting the barrel to one side of the DC charger and the rod to the other side of the DC charger. While it won't get any antimony or other metals out of the barrel, it WILL dissolve and re-deposit the lead on the stainless steel rod, then I can brush out the remaining metals because they won't be stuck as tight to the barrel.
Unfortunately I do not have enough of the solution to fill the barrel AND it is not available any more.
After some research, I found the formula for the solution for removing lead. It calls for Lead (II) Acetate and Ammonium Acetate (C2H7NO2) but I am unsure what exactly Lead (II) Acetate is. Can anybody tell me the chemical formula for it?
Here is what I found out on-line. The following information was in the Marlin Firearms Owners Forum, and was posted 1-10-2015
Aside from all the precautions about the lead in the solution and how dangerous it is, I don't care. I can take all the precautions necessary when using it, I just need to make sure I am buying the correct chemical.
Can anybody steer me to the correct formula? Is it Lead(II) acetate trihydrate? Lead(II) Acetate Basic, anhydrous? or something different?
If it is Lead (II) Acetate Trihydrate, is it a 1:1 direct replacement for the Lead (II) Acetate in the formulas that are listed below?
That's the main concern right now, but at some point in the future I would also like to make the copper removing solution too...
Foul-Out Solution
The formulation for the copper removing solution is: 3.62 grams/liter of Copper (II) Acetate and 38.5 grams/liter of Ammonium Acetate in distilled or deionized water. The ammonium acetate is there to aid in the solubilization of the removed and oxidized copper and the copper acetate is used with the battery driven systems that to maintain a constant potential between the barrel and the electrode.
The lead out solution formulation is as follows: 38.5 grams/liter of Ammonium Acetate and 6.50 grams/liter of Lead (II) Acetate in distilled or deionized water.
The Science Alliance 1920 Treble Drive
J-1
Humble, TX. 77338
(281) 540-3115
www.sciencealliance.com
Recipes
Cop Out Solution
in 500 ml DI water in 1 Quart of DI water
27.9 grains of Copper (II) Acetate @ 27.8 cents 58.96 grains of Copper (II) Acetate
297.0 grains of Ammonium Acetate @ 22.9 cents 627.68 grains of Ammonium Acetate
Total chemical cost w/o DI water = $0.507 per bottle Total chemical cost w/o DI water = $1.07
An aqueous electrolyte of 0.5 molar ammonium acetate has been found to be particularly well suited because ammonium acetate promotes the solubilization of copper ions. The addition of not more than 0.02 molar copper(II) acetate (3.62 grams/liter) is suitable and will not promote any adverse reaction with the ferrous metal of the bore.
Lead Out Solution
in 500-ml DI water in 1 Quart of DI water
50.15 grains of Lead (II) Acetate @ 12.5 cents 105.98 grains of Lead (II) Acetate
297.0 grains of Ammonium Acetate @ 27.8 cents 627.68 grains of Ammonium Acetate
Total chemical cost w/o DI water = $0.403 per bottle Total chemical cost w/o DI water = $0.85
An aqueous electrochemical cleaning solution consisting of 0.5 moles/liter (38.5 grams/liter) ammonium acetate and 0.02 moles/liter (6.5 grams/liter) lead(II) acetate. Since metallic lead is by far the predominant constitutent of lead fouling deposited in the bore, the minor amounts of alloying metals such as antimony and tin, as well as other usual non-metallic fouling deposits, if not oxidized themselves, simply loosen or fall off as the layer of lead fouling is removed. Purchased 2/26/01 @ $157.49 less shippingAmmonium Acetate 10 Kilo Grams @ $0.011897 per Gram or 154320 grains $0.0007709 per grain
Copper Acetate 100 Grams @ $0.1542 per Gram or 1543.2 grains $0.0099922 per grain
Lead Acetate 500 Grams @ $0.0462 per Gram or 7716 grains $0.0024948 per grain
Will make 55 ea. 500 ml Cop Out base solution
Will make 153 ea. 500 ml Lead Out base solution
will make 519 ea. 500 ml Ammonium Acetate base solution
Conversion 500 ml = 16.9 ozGrams x 15.432 = grains
Liters x 1.0567 = Quarts
Liters x 33.81402 = Ounces
Copper or copper alloy fouling, the latter occurring primarily through the use of so-called jacketed bullets, is removed in a manner similar to lead. Thus, an aqueous electrolyte of 0.5 molar ammonium acetate has been found to be particularly well suited because ammonium acetate promotes the solubilization of copper ions. If a potentiostat is not used, the aqueous electrolyte is preferentially doped with copper ions supplied by dissolving therein a suitable copper salt, such as copper(II) acetate. However, because copper ions in solution react spontaneously with iron in a direct replacement reaction, it has been found that only very low concentrations of copper ions can be tolerated. The addition of not more than 0.02 molar copper(II) acetate (3.62 grams/liter) is suitable and will not promote any adverse reaction with the ferrous metal of the bore. The acetate salt of copper also appears to have the beneficial effect of lowering the spontaneous reactivity of copper with iron. Similarly as in the case of lead alloy fouling, the alloying metals typically used with copper, such as zinc, are either dissolved and codeposited on the auxiliary electrode with the copper or loosened and fall into the aqueous electrolyte.
To electrochemically remove lead fouling, an aqueous solution of 0.5 molar ammonium acetate (38.5 grams/liter) is a preferred electrolyte. Ammonium acetate has no direct chemical or electrolytic effect on steel, but provides the electrolytic conductivity necessary for the electrochemical oxidation of the metallic fouling, and acts to enhance the dissolution of the oxidized lead. If a potentiostat is not used, the electrolyte is further preferentially doped with lead ions to establish in the electrolytic solution an equilibrium electrolytic condition which promotes uniform and continuous deposition of lead on the auxiliary electrode. Doping with lead ions also eliminates the need to monitor and adjust the potential and to maintain the lead ion concentration in the electrolyte. Most conveniently, the electrolytic solution may be doped with approximately 0.02 molar lead(II) acetate (6.50 grams/liter) which is compatible with the base electrolyte and innocuous to the steel bore. It should be noted that an aqueous solution of lead acetate alone may also be effectively used. However, as previously mentioned, ammonium acetate in the electrolyte enhances the dissolution of the electrochemically oxidized lead fouling. In addition, lead acetate is not very soluble in water, but is substantially more soluble in aqueous ammonium acetate.
Since metallic lead is by far the predominant constituent of lead fouling deposited in the bore, the minor amounts of alloying metals such as antimony and tin, as well as other usual non-metallic fouling deposits, if not oxidized themselves, simply loosen or fall off as the layer of lead fouling is removed. To the extent that these minor components of the fouling layer are not actually dissolved in the electrolyte, they are conveniently swept away with the electrolyte when the bore is emptied or may be swabbed from the bore in the conventional manner after the electrolyte is removed.
The method disclosed herein is effectively operated at very low d-c potential. Thus, potentials in the range of 0.15 to 0.30 volts have been found to be adequate and it is believed that, for all usual metal fouling layers, a potential in excess of 2 volts would not be needed. In all cases, the current density is effectively controlled by the amount of metal fouling on the bore surface and remains at a low level. The practice of the method, therefore, does not expose the user to any electrical hazard. Furthermore, the method may be carried out at room temperature, thereby obviating the potential hazard of handling high temperature liquids. The electrolytes do not evolve toxic vapors and can, therefore, be safely used indoors with normal ventilation.
Thanks!
I have an Outers Foul-Out system. Basically it's a reverse plating system, where you plug the end of the barrel, put this stainless steel rod inside the barrel and isolate the stainless steel rod from touching the barrel by placing these O-Rings on it, pouring a solution into the barrel, connecting the barrel to one side of the DC charger and the rod to the other side of the DC charger. While it won't get any antimony or other metals out of the barrel, it WILL dissolve and re-deposit the lead on the stainless steel rod, then I can brush out the remaining metals because they won't be stuck as tight to the barrel.
Unfortunately I do not have enough of the solution to fill the barrel AND it is not available any more.
After some research, I found the formula for the solution for removing lead. It calls for Lead (II) Acetate and Ammonium Acetate (C2H7NO2) but I am unsure what exactly Lead (II) Acetate is. Can anybody tell me the chemical formula for it?
Here is what I found out on-line. The following information was in the Marlin Firearms Owners Forum, and was posted 1-10-2015
Aside from all the precautions about the lead in the solution and how dangerous it is, I don't care. I can take all the precautions necessary when using it, I just need to make sure I am buying the correct chemical.
Can anybody steer me to the correct formula? Is it Lead(II) acetate trihydrate? Lead(II) Acetate Basic, anhydrous? or something different?
If it is Lead (II) Acetate Trihydrate, is it a 1:1 direct replacement for the Lead (II) Acetate in the formulas that are listed below?
That's the main concern right now, but at some point in the future I would also like to make the copper removing solution too...
Foul-Out Solution
The formulation for the copper removing solution is: 3.62 grams/liter of Copper (II) Acetate and 38.5 grams/liter of Ammonium Acetate in distilled or deionized water. The ammonium acetate is there to aid in the solubilization of the removed and oxidized copper and the copper acetate is used with the battery driven systems that to maintain a constant potential between the barrel and the electrode.
The lead out solution formulation is as follows: 38.5 grams/liter of Ammonium Acetate and 6.50 grams/liter of Lead (II) Acetate in distilled or deionized water.
The Science Alliance 1920 Treble Drive
J-1
Humble, TX. 77338
(281) 540-3115
www.sciencealliance.com
Recipes
Cop Out Solution
in 500 ml DI water in 1 Quart of DI water
27.9 grains of Copper (II) Acetate @ 27.8 cents 58.96 grains of Copper (II) Acetate
297.0 grains of Ammonium Acetate @ 22.9 cents 627.68 grains of Ammonium Acetate
Total chemical cost w/o DI water = $0.507 per bottle Total chemical cost w/o DI water = $1.07
An aqueous electrolyte of 0.5 molar ammonium acetate has been found to be particularly well suited because ammonium acetate promotes the solubilization of copper ions. The addition of not more than 0.02 molar copper(II) acetate (3.62 grams/liter) is suitable and will not promote any adverse reaction with the ferrous metal of the bore.
Lead Out Solution
in 500-ml DI water in 1 Quart of DI water
50.15 grains of Lead (II) Acetate @ 12.5 cents 105.98 grains of Lead (II) Acetate
297.0 grains of Ammonium Acetate @ 27.8 cents 627.68 grains of Ammonium Acetate
Total chemical cost w/o DI water = $0.403 per bottle Total chemical cost w/o DI water = $0.85
An aqueous electrochemical cleaning solution consisting of 0.5 moles/liter (38.5 grams/liter) ammonium acetate and 0.02 moles/liter (6.5 grams/liter) lead(II) acetate. Since metallic lead is by far the predominant constitutent of lead fouling deposited in the bore, the minor amounts of alloying metals such as antimony and tin, as well as other usual non-metallic fouling deposits, if not oxidized themselves, simply loosen or fall off as the layer of lead fouling is removed. Purchased 2/26/01 @ $157.49 less shippingAmmonium Acetate 10 Kilo Grams @ $0.011897 per Gram or 154320 grains $0.0007709 per grain
Copper Acetate 100 Grams @ $0.1542 per Gram or 1543.2 grains $0.0099922 per grain
Lead Acetate 500 Grams @ $0.0462 per Gram or 7716 grains $0.0024948 per grain
Will make 55 ea. 500 ml Cop Out base solution
Will make 153 ea. 500 ml Lead Out base solution
will make 519 ea. 500 ml Ammonium Acetate base solution
Conversion 500 ml = 16.9 ozGrams x 15.432 = grains
Liters x 1.0567 = Quarts
Liters x 33.81402 = Ounces
Copper or copper alloy fouling, the latter occurring primarily through the use of so-called jacketed bullets, is removed in a manner similar to lead. Thus, an aqueous electrolyte of 0.5 molar ammonium acetate has been found to be particularly well suited because ammonium acetate promotes the solubilization of copper ions. If a potentiostat is not used, the aqueous electrolyte is preferentially doped with copper ions supplied by dissolving therein a suitable copper salt, such as copper(II) acetate. However, because copper ions in solution react spontaneously with iron in a direct replacement reaction, it has been found that only very low concentrations of copper ions can be tolerated. The addition of not more than 0.02 molar copper(II) acetate (3.62 grams/liter) is suitable and will not promote any adverse reaction with the ferrous metal of the bore. The acetate salt of copper also appears to have the beneficial effect of lowering the spontaneous reactivity of copper with iron. Similarly as in the case of lead alloy fouling, the alloying metals typically used with copper, such as zinc, are either dissolved and codeposited on the auxiliary electrode with the copper or loosened and fall into the aqueous electrolyte.
To electrochemically remove lead fouling, an aqueous solution of 0.5 molar ammonium acetate (38.5 grams/liter) is a preferred electrolyte. Ammonium acetate has no direct chemical or electrolytic effect on steel, but provides the electrolytic conductivity necessary for the electrochemical oxidation of the metallic fouling, and acts to enhance the dissolution of the oxidized lead. If a potentiostat is not used, the electrolyte is further preferentially doped with lead ions to establish in the electrolytic solution an equilibrium electrolytic condition which promotes uniform and continuous deposition of lead on the auxiliary electrode. Doping with lead ions also eliminates the need to monitor and adjust the potential and to maintain the lead ion concentration in the electrolyte. Most conveniently, the electrolytic solution may be doped with approximately 0.02 molar lead(II) acetate (6.50 grams/liter) which is compatible with the base electrolyte and innocuous to the steel bore. It should be noted that an aqueous solution of lead acetate alone may also be effectively used. However, as previously mentioned, ammonium acetate in the electrolyte enhances the dissolution of the electrochemically oxidized lead fouling. In addition, lead acetate is not very soluble in water, but is substantially more soluble in aqueous ammonium acetate.
Since metallic lead is by far the predominant constituent of lead fouling deposited in the bore, the minor amounts of alloying metals such as antimony and tin, as well as other usual non-metallic fouling deposits, if not oxidized themselves, simply loosen or fall off as the layer of lead fouling is removed. To the extent that these minor components of the fouling layer are not actually dissolved in the electrolyte, they are conveniently swept away with the electrolyte when the bore is emptied or may be swabbed from the bore in the conventional manner after the electrolyte is removed.
The method disclosed herein is effectively operated at very low d-c potential. Thus, potentials in the range of 0.15 to 0.30 volts have been found to be adequate and it is believed that, for all usual metal fouling layers, a potential in excess of 2 volts would not be needed. In all cases, the current density is effectively controlled by the amount of metal fouling on the bore surface and remains at a low level. The practice of the method, therefore, does not expose the user to any electrical hazard. Furthermore, the method may be carried out at room temperature, thereby obviating the potential hazard of handling high temperature liquids. The electrolytes do not evolve toxic vapors and can, therefore, be safely used indoors with normal ventilation.
Thanks!
