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Post by lymanl3 on Jun 4, 2011 21:21:39 GMT -5
Antler restrictions is the last thing I would do to achieve a greater proportion of mature bucks. The whole spread debate is moot. Way too many nice bucks that are mature, score well and are not wide.
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Post by lugnutz on Jun 4, 2011 22:18:05 GMT -5
Yes, on all public lands.
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Post by 76chevy on Jun 5, 2011 7:02:32 GMT -5
Conjecture and opinion is one thing, but to really understand this you have to look at real harvest data in states that have implemented this.
In Missouri...
The percentage of 3.5+ year old bucks contributed to the total harvest was 16% before antler point restrictions were instituted in 2004 and now they make up 37% of the buck harvest
yearling buck harvest dropped from 43% to just 18% in the 65 counties with APR in place
42% of hunters supported APR's when there were introduced in MO, now 70% do!
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Post by 76chevy on Jun 5, 2011 7:04:34 GMT -5
I agree spread restrictions make no sense, point restrictions are better however Not everyone can accurately age an animal on the hoof just by body size so this is the best we could do. Antler restrictions is the last thing I would do to achieve a greater proportion of mature bucks. The whole spread debate is moot. Way too many nice bucks that are mature, score well and are not wide. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2011 7:09:28 GMT -5
Matt, the only ones you can plan on hunting without connection in the draw are the ones open to public hunting, as WMA should be. Quality of the hunt there is as low as any of the non-restricted WMA's.
I'll ask again, how many of them have you personally hunted and what did you kill while you were there. The notion is that there is a trophy buck behind every tree at these places and it's simply not true. It's rare to see a mature buck during daylight hours on any of them. Now tell me how your experience has been totally different.
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Post by mattfinney on Jun 5, 2011 9:09:59 GMT -5
Timex, the notion is that if you allow all of the yearling bucks to survive in a particular area, there will be more 2.5, 3.5, ect. bucks running around as a result. I really don't see how you can dispute that. Spread restrictions make WAY more sense than do point restricions. Make it outside spread of 12 inches or more. I'm guessing here, but I bet that would protect over 90% of yearlings, and I would also guess that 99% of 3 year olds would meet that requirement. Show me some 3 year olds with less than 12 inches outside and I'll rethink.
If a person shoots a smaller buck, the fine should be proportional to the number of inches that the rack is short.
half inch short = $50 fine
3 inches short= $300 fine
etc.
Hunters don't know they like it until they try it. Doesn't Chevy's post prove that?
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Post by 76chevy on Jun 5, 2011 11:04:44 GMT -5
the data proves it ;D ;D Timex, check the MO harvest and survey result data yourself if you don't believe it. .... Hunters don't know they like it until they try it. Doesn't Chevy's post prove that? |
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Post by lymanl3 on Jun 5, 2011 11:09:01 GMT -5
Yor telling me you can be precise down to the half inch at 100 yds? Your fines are far from proportionate to the cost of tags. Your talking outfitter numbers there. The point system isn't going to work either especially when you got one side showing and the other side is busted up during the rut. Total score is what counts. This is micro managing to the extreme. OBR is producing more mature bucks in my area, there just needs to before emphasis on antlerless harvest. Maybe even EAB every so often, increase antlerless seasons and pull firearm pressure from the rut and you will get more mature bucks.
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Post by Woody Williams on Jun 5, 2011 12:10:26 GMT -5
Antler point restrictions have been proven in a Mississippi State University study to "high grade" the bucks. IOW - with a three to said as a legal buck it is killing off some of the better yearlings and allowing the spikes and forkies to carry on be breeders doqwn the road.
IMHO - APRs will not help in Indiana as we have pretty good genetics and lots of nutrition for deer. A LOT of yearling bucks have 3 or more points to a side. Scrub bucks will be getting a pas while potential great bucks will die as yearlings.
Judging width in a hunting situation is great IF that deer is fairly close and looking your direction or staright away from you. No one alive can judge width on a broadside deer.
There will be a lot of "ground checking:" going on wth nay antler restrictions.
My question to all - Why do we need to keep chasing that few more inches of bone on a deer's head? I asked earlier of the folks that seemed to want more and more - I asked, when is enough, enough?
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Post by dbd870 on Jun 5, 2011 14:39:53 GMT -5
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Post by Russ Koon on Jun 5, 2011 15:54:20 GMT -5
+2
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2011 16:01:48 GMT -5
OBR provides all the overlap that is needed to increase the number of 2.5 and older bucks in the herd. With herd numbers as they are, even the OBR is no longer needed. Just do the math and it shows that with the present harvest being what it is and consistant, that not even half of the bucks are being killed each year.
Any restriction that save a year class of bucks will also lower the overall harvest, making more problems than it cures.
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Post by windingwinds on Jun 5, 2011 17:35:23 GMT -5
Antlers are nice, but....... With size/spread restrictions on antlers we'd be hurting ourselves. I admit I might miscount points when aiming, and trying to estimate inches? Are you CRAZY?! So then everyone who makes a mistake estimating antler size gets hit by a fine if they are stupid enough to check it in? How is that helping hunters? That is a whole another level of hunting and not one I'm interested in. I hunt for the sport and to have a few nice venison meals. The current 3 inch rule works just fine.
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Post by Woody Williams on Jun 5, 2011 17:43:41 GMT -5
Antlers are nice, but....... With size/spread restrictions on antlers we'd be hurting ourselves. I admit I might miscount points when aiming, and trying to estimate inches? Are you CRAZY?! So then everyone who makes a mistake estimating antler size gets hit by a fine if they are stupid enough to check it in? How is that helping hunters? That is a whole another level of hunting and not one I'm interested in. I hunt for the sport and to have a few nice venison meals. The current 3 inch rule works just fine. Agreed 110% ....... |
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Post by racktracker on Jun 5, 2011 17:47:48 GMT -5
No, no a thousand times NO!!!
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Post by stevein on Jun 6, 2011 8:58:11 GMT -5
NO.
That was what I was thinking.
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Post by INDeerhunter on Jun 6, 2011 10:18:16 GMT -5
I think if we put restrictions on antler size then we are going to be finding alot more "poached" deer in the field !! Guys that miss judged the size of the buck they shot are going to leave it laying when it doesnt meet the standard instead of checking it in and facing what would appear to be a hefty fine from some of you are suggesting !!!
Its bad enough I know of a couple guys in the past that have shot a buck and when "ground checked" it as WW called it realized it was a lil smaller than they expected and have left it lay and thats without facing a fine for shooting it !
I will admit I cant judge a deers antler size or spread that well in the field, it seems I almost always have under estimated it so if there were antler restrictions I personally would pass alot more bucks, which Im not saying is all that bad of an idea however Im not a antler hunter I just hunt for the meat, the experience, and the enjoyment of being out there in the outdoors.
I agree that the 3" rule is good enough of a antler restriction and we shouldnt make it any harder than it already is. Thats just my 2 cents on it, but the thought of a $300 fine for shooting too small of a buck is down right ridiculous to me, and I honestly think it would cause more problems than it will solve.
I know some antler hunters say that so called "meat" hunters like myself are still trophy antler hunters we just havent had the chance to kill one with trophy head gear but I dont agree with that statement. I put in just as much time and work into hunting as antler hunters but I feel that every deer I kill is a trophy no matter what its sporting on its head !!
I have killed a buck with alot of head gear and a wide spread in the past by being in the right place at the right time and putting in that work, but I didnt feel any different about killing it than I did the doe the prior season after the same amount of time, work, and being in the right place.
I just think that we as hunters have put too much pressure and signifigance on "antler" and have really lost the real reason we are out there in the first place. I cant eat antlers so Im not concerned with how big they are.
I can tell you this I enjoy the meal provided to me from harvesting a mature doe more than a mature buck anyday, the quality of the meat from a 120 lb. doe is much tastier than that of a rutting 200 lb. buck !!!!
Adding more restrictions to hunting season and limiting the type of deer we can harvest is just killing the basic principles of hunting !! Hunting no matter the quarry was once a staple in providing food for people and now since its not a necessity we have made it a game where we go out to kill for the sport of it and bragging rights !!
That makes me a little sad that hunting is more for show than it is for being a part of something that was once a way of life and survival. Hunting to me is spirtual, a way for me to connect with nature, and be a part of a tradition that runs deep in history not a way for me to brag to my friends about the size of a piece of bone on an animals head that I shot !
My 2 cents !!
~INDeerhunter~
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Post by cambygsp on Jun 6, 2011 10:41:05 GMT -5
If it's BIG headgear we are trying to develop why not just limit the amount of buck tags the state will issue.
All over the counter license buyers would have to APPLY for a buck tag, then a lottery type draw could be conducted. This would limit the amount of bucks being killed each year and in a few short years we would have MONSTERS running around......possibly several new world records.
Of course lifetime license holders would get a buck tag every year because we have a contract with the state that provides that.
I am not saying I WANT this type of system, but if growing big antlers is the GOAL.........this system would sure do it !
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Post by boonechaser on Jun 6, 2011 11:03:35 GMT -5
NO
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Post by oldhoyt on Jun 6, 2011 11:59:59 GMT -5
I know that antler restrictions work. They do result in a greater percentage of older bucks in the harvest, and older bucks generally have larger antlers. Hunters generally like larger antlers. BUT, I have no interest in ARs. They are the beginning of the slippery QDM slope. Big bucks equal more leased land equals less access for the average guy.
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