.204 Ruger

[jajwrigh]

I am going to be putting some glass on top of a .204 Ruger pistol barrel for my Encore that I have laying around and I was looking to hear from anyone with first hand experience with this caliber. Please let me know....

[jrbhunter]

I have killed a lot of coyotes with the .204 but I must admit its not a good choice. There isn't a good factory bullet out there for coyote sized game.

I have been running .204 AR's, bolts and pistols for years but recently gave up trying to convince myself they are coyote weapons. Too inconsistent with "varmint" bullets. They are tough on fox and prairie dogs though.

[45shooter]

Can you please expand on the performance concern on coyotes? I have often considered trying a .204 for coyotes.

[jajwrigh]

Nov 30, 2011 10:54:08 GMT -5 jrbhunter said:

I have killed a lot of coyotes with the .204 but I must admit its not a good choice. There isn't a good factory bullet out there for coyote sized game.

I have been running .204 AR's, bolts and pistols for years but recently gave up trying to convince myself they are coyote weapons. Too inconsistent with "varmint" bullets. They are tough on fox and prairie dogs though.

I appreciate your feedback on this topic, especially! I won't waste my time and set it up then. I guess now I see that I have little to no use for this barrel...

[jrbhunter]

Nov 30, 2011 12:56:48 GMT -5 45shooter said:

Can you please expand on the performance concern on coyotes? I have often considered trying a .204 for coyotes.

45shooter,
When the .204 came on the scene my calling partner picked up the first one I’d seen or heard of. He was sold on the ballistics as it appeared to be an improvement over the .223 with a perceived fur friendliness that the larger calibers lacked. It was also available in the AR platform which was a draw for him at the time.

Right out of the gate, he was spinning coyotes pretty consistently. Maybe 1 in 5, all within reasonable range, and we were blood trailing or otherwise going back to look for downed coyotes an awful lot. He also had some less than stellar bullet performance on ground hogs and other small vermin. I wasn’t impressed but I think he had buyer’s remorse and hung in there with the .204 for several more years.

I delved into the .204 later in an attempt to reduce volume, recoil and muzzle flash. My theory was that this combination would increase my multiples on night stands when running night vision. The first year was brutal with spinners and flat-out runners after taking fairly good hits. I scratched my head hard all season. I then began testing different bullets and eventually settling on a hand loaded 39gr Berger. This did increase multiples. The first couple weeks produced two triples, a quad and a few doubles but this still included a handful of blood trails and finishing shots. That’s not my idea of solid kill power and I hate wasting time looking for coyotes that should’ve been dead on impact.

I’m sure if you had the time to select shots over bait or from a deer stand, quartering away lung shots would be lethal every time. I’ve screwed around with shot placement and there simply isn’t a good consistent core area to thump a coyote with these lightning fast “Varmint” bullets in CALLING situations. 90% of my coyotes are coming to me at some speed; by convincing them to stop I often evoke a full-frontal stare down. Shot selection isn’t always the greatest once it’s time to pull the trigger. The varmint bullets splash, split and fragment differently from shoulders to necks to jawbones at 50 yards or 300.

Just last week I went out and dumped a couple coyotes at 50-75 yards with the .204 deader than a hammer then went down the road a mile and called another up to within 40-50 yards. He stood there facing me (handcalls) for three or four minutes before I pulled the trigger with the crosshairs centered on his brisket. He went down immediately, and then a large tuft of fur fluttered down from overhead. Shortly, he jumped up and began hobbling away. Dumbfounded, I watched him walk 150 yards before he stumbled and eventually expired with a volley ball sized splash wound low in his throat. That was the last stand I carried a .204 on and I don’t plan on going back to it anytime soon.

It will kill the vast majority of coyotes you shoot with it, most of those will expire within eyesight, but that’s not good enough for me. To each their own.


jajwrigh.... don't get too down on that pistol barrel. Mine is a blast to shoot. It's hell on crows and small vermin. I plan to take it out West on the next trip and pop some prairie dogs. Awful lot of fun, smooth handling pistol and a flat shooting cartridge.

[45shooter]

jrbhunter,
Thanks for the GREAT post. The info is greatly appreciated.

[cdeckard1]

JRB- What round do you prefer for coyotes?

[steve46511]

From what Ive read on the 204R its a lot like the 17 Rem in some areas.

The ***SPLAT*** bullets famous for major eruptions on various varmints are prone to NOT penetrating enough for coyote and those using such VERY successfully FOR such are shooting Todd Kindler (Woodchuckden)) or Berger TARGET match bullets (not the varmint match) that have heavier jackets and go in BEFORE erupting.

Setting up for some serious anti-deer coyote population wiping out for winter 2012 (too late for now by the time Im completely set up) but still might go out with my nephew and borrow a gun the next couple weeks. Some areas are getting a bit TOO crowded coyote wise.

I dont know if they are hungry or what but twice this week Ive had them in my yard at night. My Walker goes INSANE trying to get at them lol......rough sleeping so shotgun is loaded. Enough is enough.

But for chits and giggles of always wanting a semi custom something or other I just made a deal , just tonight, on a shorter range coyote (with a call 100 yards is rare here) that is a little more FUR FRIENDLY than my buddies 22-250 but Ill take 200 yards on a coyote with good bullets with it. (more below)

Probably get shot more at the range and out groundhog and crow shooting (when season...season?...omg lol) and something to "play" with but it's an amazing little round.

I had a 22 hornet, neat unto itself in the same factory gun and discoverd a real NEED for the single set trigger the CZ 527 has. First 200 yard group without a GOOD rest measured 1 3/8 inches and I dont know what it would do because someone wanted it a lot more than I did and I sold it. Pretty sure worked up loads and a solid bench would have cut that under an inch......at 200 yards. Good for these old eyes and nerves.

But then.......sniffing around I ran into a gun that I had to try to talk the guy into selling.......and succeeded barring any catastrophes.

Based on the 22 hornet, the 17 Ackley Hornet is pretty down right dumb founding. While Hodgdon quotes lower velocities MANY Ive chatted with using this round are running 3800 fps plus.........with less than 11 grains of powder. Both lil gun and 1680 are giving less than half MOA accuracy and pretty stout velocities for such a dinky, low noise, zero recoil round.

Todd Kindler makes bullets for the 17s in a WIDE range from super light screamers to high BC 30 grain bullets and does for the 20s too.

Take a look at youtube and youll find 500 plus yard coyote kills with a 204 Ruger. More than I need in bang/flash for here in IN. With the right bullets for the size game, the energy from them are way more than "needed".

So anyway, OT....but my soon to be incoming rifle? (so Im a little excited..sue me LOL)

A CZ 527 Prestige rebarreled with a PacNor match, fluted, bull, SS 17 Ackley Hornet (Improved), single set trigger and oh yeah.........being the wood pecker I AM???

take a look.

I think I can live through forming brass for a chance to own and shoot this and take er along out for IN varmint and predators.






But back OT? With the right bullets for the bigger game like coyotes.........Ill lay odds on the 204 R being one HECK of a coyote leveler. As in any rifle, it's the right bullet choice that lays em low within the range of the round. Energy wise the 204R is dang near TOO much for my use.

God Bless
Steve

[Boilermaker]

Now that is a good looking gun. I had a chance at a Ruger #1 in .204 but couldn't bring myself to buy it; always heard pretty good things about the round though.

jrbhunter, you seem to know a great deal about coyote hunting. I'm trying to get into it myself...haven't had much luck though. I've currently got a Browning A-Bolt in .223. What caliber would you say is best for dogs?

[hornharvester]

Feb 10, 2012 8:22:48 GMT -5 Boilermaker said:

Now that is a good looking gun. I had a chance at a Ruger #1 in .204 but couldn't bring myself to buy it; always heard pretty good things about the round though.

jrbhunter, you seem to know a great deal about coyote hunting. I'm trying to get into it myself...haven't had much luck though. I've currently got a Browning A-Bolt in .223. What caliber would you say is best for dogs?

That .223 is a very good one for dogs. My top three in order would be 22-250 Rem, .243 Win and .223 Rem. The .223 is probably the top caliber for dogs. Depending on your barrel twist this caliber with the right bullet is hell on them. I personally use the .223 with a 1-9 twist and 69 Sierra with a full load of Varget but I dont save hides. I know several guys who dog hunt a lot and they use 60 grain V-max in .223 with AR's.

I think your A-Bolt is a 1-12 twist and any of the 40-55 grain bullets should work great. Bullet choice depends on whether you are saving hides or not. h.h.

[Boilermaker]

I'm not interested in saving hides...just want to thin them out. We've got way too many in our area and nobody hunts them. I'm trying to get my brothers to join me...maybe put one on the shotgun and the other has an AR. Thanks for the info!

[hornharvester]

Any of the 50 -55 grain soft point bullets will work great for yotes in your .223. Do you reload? or buy ammo? Winchester white box is very good if you can find it. Good luck, h.h.

[Boilermaker]

I've thought about getting into reloading but was talked out of it by an owner of a gun shop (wonder why, lol). He said unless you shoot large volumes or are looking for a very specific round or want a high performance custom round it's not worth the time or money. I'll keep an eye out for the Winchester white boxes...good thing about .223 its about the easiest ammo to find.

[danf]

Once you start buying the higher dollar ammo you'll need to get the best accuracy out of factory rounds, handloading makes sense. I get much, much better accuracy out of my handloads through my AR than I do with the cheap (i.e- ~$10/box) factory fodder, and once I have the brass my handloads run about 1/2 of the cost of the cheap stuff. Plus, if you have more than one gun to reload for, the cost of the equipment is lessened- any new guns you add only require new dies if you don't already have them. Dies run anywhere from $10-15 for used and possibly up to $50-60 for new ones in more common calibers.

Last I knew, jrb was using an AR-15 for coyotes, and it's chambered in a .25 caliber, either a WSM or WSSM round I believe.

[steve46511]

Agree on the 223. That is a very versatile, low recoil whack em and stack em round.

Give thoughts to what ELSE the round is used for, aka 5.56 NATO.

The 22-250, 204R and such shoot flatter but if calling? 200 yards is a LONG shot on a coyote coming in. That is the reason for my rounds of choice. 80 percent of the ones Ive seen and buddies too on a call is 150 or less before we see them. Gets fast and furious to get on em and whack em when they hesitate and the 223 can lay em low out past that with ease. Not REAL fur friendly but if just whackin' em......eh.

A buddy takes a shotgun for that very reason that sometimes they come in a hellin' and at 30 yards or less a load of number 4s or 2s outa a full choke is "flattening" Long range is fun but dont get many calls for it, personally. An occasionally one working a field behind the house at 300 or less is about as far as I get chances at em.

If I took a poll, Id bet 80 percent or better of those I know that coyote hunt locally are using a 223. Me, I'm just the freak in the bunch LOL.

Going to be testing several bullets in the 17 this summer on groundhogs and sand banks but doubt if I will re-invent the wheel and those bullets I mentioned above or other similar will end up being my bullet for coyote. For groundhogs, the cheaper V-max is tough to beat but there are others as or almost as good.

Each rifle seems to pick out what it likes......I dont get to tell it crap. *grin*.

God Bless
Steve

[steve46511]

BTW.......reloading is all part of the fun to me!!

[jrbhunter]

[glow=red,2,300]“But back OT? With the right bullets for the bigger game like coyotes.........Ill lay odds on the 204 R being one HECK of a coyote leveler. As in any rifle, it's the right bullet choice that lays em low within the range of the round. Energy wise the 204R is dang near TOO much for my use.”[/glow]

No disrespect Steve, but I don’t need further keyboard hypothesis of ballistic charts to sway my opinion. It looks like you’ve got some beautiful rifles that you spend a lot of time grooming, and have a strong grasp of reloading data, but it takes COYOTES to solve this equation. Coyotes are not static, their structure and posturing is not consistent, their ranges are not uniform, winter hunting conditions do not match “chronograph day” at the Hogdon range. Bullet placement is not a science on called coyotes like it is on a lump of gelatin at the Hornady testing facility. If you’re open minded and put enough coyotes in front of that gun, I doubt you’ll be pleased. As I said before, some of my friends that initially invested in the .204-craze suffered from buyer’s remorse once they saw its performance… I simply call em’ like I see em’. I don’t mind wasting money on rifles, I just hate losing coyotes… ask my wife.


[glow=red,2,300]“Gets fast and furious to get on em and whack em when they hesitate and the 223 can lay em low out past that with ease. Not REAL fur friendly but if just whackin' em......eh.”[/glow]

Let me be clear, I have killed more coyotes with a 22lr than most have with their preferred coyote rifle. Horrible choice in weaponry for coyotes, but we’re all young and dumb once. That being said, just because a weapon “CAN” kill a coyote on occasion… doesn’t mean it’s adequate for daily use in scenarios where you INTEND to harvest coyotes. I have harvested a handful of coyotes with the 17HMR cleanly, I’ve even taken dozens of 200-2,000 pound livestock with the HMR, but that doesn’t stop me from laughing out loud every time I see someone suggest one as a calling rifle.

There can be a broad gap between what “can” happen and what will “likely” happen in reality. In the case of a .223 “laying them down flat” and being “not real fur friendly” I’d have to say you’re leaning back toward the unlikely somewhat. I carried a .223 off and on for two years, probably pulled the trigger over 100 times on predators, and I’d estimate fur damage was an issue on 5 coyotes. Probably all neck shot, maybe a shoulder glance in there or a 10 yard kamikaze.

As far as “laying them down flat”, sure it happened. We filmed one evening where I killed 5 coyotes with the .223. Notably, one was a 175 yard runner that did about 5 cartwheels before he stopped stone-cold dead with a bullet behind the ear. The others were probably all within 75 yards, broadside. That day’s result could’ve convinced a few people on .223 coyote rifles… but the bigger picture of calling coyotes to a .223 revealed significant headaches for me. Soft points blow through, ballistic tips inconsistently splash, the best luck I had with the .223 was hollow points. Even then, we probably lost 15-20% more coyotes than we should have if we were carrying a good coyote round.

I have now progressed full circle and landed back on a pair of rifles chambered in 22-250. I’ve been carrying a variety of rifles over the last 3-4 years but two things lead to my decision to go back to the 22-250. First, I spent about 5 days in Arizona mowing down coyotes with my trusty old Savage 22-250 (15 yrs old) that had been retired since 06’. Then, Olympic Arms came out with this new UMAR in 22-250. That’s all it took.




And yes Danf, I did carry the 25’s for several years… still have them… but they’re semi-retired. I took them into Kansas back in the fall and shot prairie dogs in 30mph wind, that’s about all they’ve killed in the past 6 months. They probably won’t see full-time duty again until I head west for Lions or Wolves in October.

[steve46511]

Difference in opinion or perhaps hunting methods perhaps. No offense taken.

Ive seen coyotes shot with 22-250s at multiple ranges. No thanks.

Nope, not shot coyotes yet but a member of two websites where the main squeeze of the membership hunt coyotes for fur. 80 percent of more use 17 caliber guns, many smaller than the 17 Rem which is THE cartridge for one site that promotes the use for full time coyote hunters with entire forums on that round alone.

Nice looking group of weapons. Good luck hunting
GodBless

[jrbhunter]

Feb 22, 2012 20:15:05 GMT -5 steve46511 said:

Difference in opinion or perhaps hunting methods perhaps.

Feb 22, 2012 20:15:05 GMT -5 steve46511 said:

Nope, not shot coyotes yet but a member of two websites

Experience changes opinions, opinions don’t change experience.

Feb 22, 2012 20:15:05 GMT -5 steve46511 said:

Nope, not shot coyotes yet but a member of two websites where the main squeeze of the membership hunt coyotes for fur. 80 percent of more use 17 caliber guns, many smaller than the 17 Rem which is THE cartridge for one site that promotes the use for full time coyote hunters with entire forums on that round alone.

I’m familiar with the one website you describe; I’ve been on there for about 7 years and have hunted with several of its members/moderators and founders. As you know, the Terms-Of-Service prohibits any negative input about the 17 caliber rifles and ALSO prohibits discussion of larger calibers or alternative hunting techniques. You have a couple of dominant groups still visiting that site which, in itself, is a clique within a niche.

One, a group of experienced predator callers from the Southwest that is passionate about shooting 19 pound coyotes at 45 yards without leaving an exit wound. I’ve hunted that country several times and I know a smaller cartridge will function better in that terrain on those animals than it will here. We took 34 coyotes down there in October and weighed them all, the heaviest was 20% shy of the run-of-the-mill 7 month old coyote in Indiana… 50% lighter than the big coyotes here.

Secondly, you have a group of people that are minimally involved in ACTUALLY predator calling but spend a lot of time talking about the rifles they ADAMANTLY suggest others should use. I don’t trust a skinny cook. Those that are passionate about their weapons and load development often come up with a powerful concoction that works light-years ahead of the factory offerings chambered by the “typical predator hunter” but I still need to see it proven in applications similar to mine before I buy-in.

In the end, this thread and many others like it revolve around the average predator caller and the situations he’s most likely to encounter while calling coyotes in the Midwest. He’s going to setup a standard rifle, purchase a few boxes of readily available ammunition, and call up half a dozen 28-45 pound coyotes a year at ranges of 75-250 yards. Within those parameters, I believe he’s best served by a range of weapons that start at the 22-250 and go up through the .243.

This is the largest coyote I harvested with the .204 and my best concoction of hand loads. The bullet was laying just inside the hide on the exit-side shoulder. I took him at 40 yards, broadside, entrance through the lungs. There are plenty of other large coyotes limping or otherwise rotting in this state due to similar small caliber bullets catching a bone or bad angle.


That's a 130# whitetail doe carcass in the background....





EDIT TO ADD: I did just make arrangements for a couple wolf hunts next winter so I guess the .25WSSM's will get some action after all!

[coyote6974]

JRB makes some excellent points in his posts on this subject. Though I've not tried a .204R, I've used everything else from .223 to .308 for coyotes. Indiana coyotes are large and tough. I've found .22-250 and .243 to be about right for open country hunting. I've setteled on an AR-15 chambered in 6.8 SPCII for close in called coyotes. Shooting 90 grain Varminters at 2800 FPS it gives me nearly twice the energy of a 5.56 AR with the same barrel length. Forty pound coytoes can pack off some lead. You need to hit them hard, with a good penetrating bullet that will dump its energy inside the animal. 55 grain HP's at 3500 to 3700 FPS, or 75 to 100 grain HP's at 2700 to 3200 FPS seem to work well.