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Post by lawrencecountyhunter on Nov 4, 2014 8:52:46 GMT -5
That is a gross exaggeration. These are the slugs I use, very popular according to my co-worker who owns a gun shop: I wish I had a dollar for every time I've heard this. I honestly do not understand the logic behind it, and nobody will explain their thinking with me. Which bullet is going to go farther, one shot at a deer either horizontal to flat ground or down towards flat ground from a treestand, or one shot at a deer uphill? Maybe I'm missing something. I am for the proposal, but I'd rather have things stay the way they are now rather than splitting the state up into "zones" and some of the other stuff I've heard. Anything done should make things more simple, not more complicated.
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Post by esshup on Nov 4, 2014 10:22:00 GMT -5
. Same as with anti-hunting and anti-trapping. People with no idea of ballistics talking about them without checking their facts. A .22 LR fired at a squirrel in a tree that misses will go a LOT further than a rifle round fired at a deer out in an open field..... Too many deer hunters to use a rifle in the state - it's safer if only handguns are used in those calibers. Indiana - 238,931 total hunters in 2012, including archery and youth Pennsylvania - 1,299,372 Wisconsin - 894,543 Both of Pa and Wi have rifle hunters, both of those states have agriculture and houses. I wonder if anybody can provide stats of how many incidents of things being shot with a firearm DURING HUNTING SEASON in those 3 states?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2014 10:32:05 GMT -5
Myths die hard, if they die at all.
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Post by M4Madness on Nov 4, 2014 11:03:45 GMT -5
Myths die hard, if they die at all. They're harder to kill than a big buck. LOL!
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Post by hornzilla on Nov 4, 2014 12:02:07 GMT -5
Since HPR have been legal for a few years in a rifle. (358, shortened 444, 4570, 35 Remington, ect.) And several years in a handgun. It would be interesting in seeing the facts about hunting accidents and houses, cars, barns, ect. That have been shot with these rounds during a hunting situation. Not some kid out shooting up a road sign. There just as safe as a shotgun or muzzleloaders. If anyone has cold hard FACTS please post them.
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Post by subzero350 on Nov 4, 2014 13:36:29 GMT -5
Northern Indiana is FLAT, I have a Sister living near Northern Indiana and it is "flat as a pancake". When I lived in Indiana; my hunting was confined to SW Indiana. I've hunted in Daviess, Pike, Posey, Warrick, Vanderburgh, Perry, and Martin counties. While these Counties are a bit more hilly than Northern Indiana, they are still "flat" compared to where I live here in Kentucky. Not all of Northern Indiana is flat. Huntington county has some hills. I hunt a property in Huntington county that has deep ravines (at least 50') and is hilly. No, it isn't as hilly as KY or PA, but it isn't as flat as a pancake. Yes, I know there are a lot of areas as flat as a pancake here around where I live. Adams county, just to the south of me, is certainly flat. But I don't hunt there. But what does it really matter? If an idiot is standing at the bottom of a ravine and fires at a deer standing at the crest of the hill above him (or her) and misses, where does the trajectory of that shot take the bullet? Several miles, I imagine. Remember the story of the guy in Ohio that killed an Amish girl about 1.5 miles away by a bullet fired from his muzzleloader that he "fired in the air" before cleaning his muzzleloader? What do you suppose the elevation had to be on that shot for that muzzleloader bullet (likely traveling at less than 2000 fps at the muzzle) for it to travel 1.5 miles? How tall of hill would there had to be for that bullet to be stopped? What I'm getting at here is if you want to split hairs and say it is dangerous to hunt with certain guns anywhere that is flat, then a case could be made showing it is dangerous to hunt where there are hills as well - if the shooter is an idiot. You might as well ban all gun hunting if you are going to argue the point of hilly terrain. People can be hurt by idiots with guns in flat or hilly terrain. It doesn't matter. It also doesn't matter as much concerning what equipment is used because we have already had it proven to us that a muzzleloader bullet can kill from 1.5 miles away. Most of your modern saboted shotgun slugs fired thru rifled barrels carry more velocity and energy than muzzleloaders. And there are a number of studies out there that suggest that slower moving, larger diameter, and heavier bullets carry a greater risk of ricocheting than faster, lighter, and smaller diameter rounds do. Concerning the population density argument, if you really want to boil it down, then again, the argument could be made saying NO GUN HUNTING should be allowed if ANYONE lives within XX miles of the hunting area. Most currently legal deer hunting rounds can kill from over a mile away, we have already established that. 1 square mile = 640 acres. How many of you are hunting 640 acre properties where you know there isn't another person? Assuming, of course, your bullet wouldn't travel beyond 1 mile (which we know it can). Basically the point I'm trying to make here is the responsibility ultimately rests on the shooter, not the equipment used. A guy with a 12ga shooting foster slugs can be just as deadly to the human population as a guy using a .30-06 if neither are responsible shooters. Not only that, but it is legal to use ANY equipment to hunt Coyote here in Indiana, which I have seen people use everything from .223's to 30 cal magnum's to take. I am not hearing a bunch of news reports rolling in every week about innocent bystanders being shot by these bullets exiting hunting fields. In contrast, you are far more likely to be struck by a gang-banger's bullet in urban areas than you are to be hit but an errant hunting round on flat land.
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Post by robinhood33 on Nov 4, 2014 14:01:55 GMT -5
That is a gross exaggeration. These are the slugs I use, very popular according to my co-worker who owns a gun shop: Although the example above has a different zero, you can see the drop rate is different. The shotgun slug posted is zero'd at 150 yards, and drops 6+ inches by the time it reaches 200 yards. The .308 zero'd at 100 yards, drops about 2 inches from 150 to 200 yards. If zero'd at 200, it will be close to 300 yards before dropping the same 6 inches as the slug. You guys tell me what's going to hit the ground first? If someone can find a slug that only drops 6 inches at 300 yards when zero'd at 200, I want to know where to get them!
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Post by dbd870 on Nov 4, 2014 14:12:08 GMT -5
That is a gross exaggeration. These are the slugs I use, very popular according to my co-worker who owns a gun shop: Although the example above has a different zero, you can see the drop rate is different. The shotgun slug posted is zero'd at 150 yards, and drops 6+ inches by the time it reaches 200 yards. The .308 zero'd at 100 yards, drops about 2 inches from 150 to 200 yards. If zero'd at 200, it will be close to 300 yards before dropping the same 6 inches as the slug. You guys tell me what's going to hit the ground first? If someone can find a slug that only drops 6 inches at 300 yards when zero'd at 200, I want to know where to get them! And in the end this shows if one is dangerous to shoot in an area then so is the other. If you are counting on the difference to keep you safe; rottsa ruck!
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Post by lawrencecountyhunter on Nov 4, 2014 16:58:33 GMT -5
That is a gross exaggeration. These are the slugs I use, very popular according to my co-worker who owns a gun shop: Although the example above has a different zero, you can see the drop rate is different. The shotgun slug posted is zero'd at 150 yards, and drops 6+ inches by the time it reaches 200 yards. The .308 zero'd at 100 yards, drops about 2 inches from 150 to 200 yards. If zero'd at 200, it will be close to 300 yards before dropping the same 6 inches as the slug. You guys tell me what's going to hit the ground first? If someone can find a slug that only drops 6 inches at 300 yards when zero'd at 200, I want to know where to get them! LOL, I never claimed any 12 gauge slug would shoot as flat as a standard .308 round; if that were the case I'd just leave my. 06 at home and take the slug gun out west. But, a slug ain't gonna go over a deer's back and then drop 3.5 feet in 50 yards unless you're taking 500 yard potshots with a shotgun.
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Post by robinhood33 on Nov 4, 2014 22:14:47 GMT -5
LOL, I never claimed any 12 gauge slug would shoot as flat as a standard .308 round; if that were the case I'd just leave my. 06 at home and take the slug gun out west. But, a slug ain't gonna go over a deer's back and then drop 3.5 feet in 50 yards unless you're taking 500 yard potshots with a shotgun. yes i know. I wasn't targeting you, just using your data as comparison. I was attempting to prove that a shotgun slug is going to hit the ground quite a bit closer when shot over flat ground to anyone that questioned it. And that's another thing, get some high powereds out and you have to at least acknowledge that there's going to be A LOT more people thinking they're dead eye and attempting 200-500 yard shots compared to now. I believe at some point it is going to be passed, and not make much of an impact on property damage, accidents, etc... BUT the first couple years will surely have a growing pain when guys get out and think they're snipers haha. That's just my 2 cents though. I hope I'm wrong!
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Post by firstwd on Nov 4, 2014 22:47:42 GMT -5
The people who believe this addition is the worst idea or most dangerous plan will not be swayed by those who feel this will simply be a slight upgrade to what is currently legal in the deer woods, nor will one be swayed the other way. If you think about it, since more than one type of firearm can legally be carried at a time, I'm certain that HPR's are hanging in tree stands during deer season - for coyote of course.
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Post by dbd870 on Nov 5, 2014 7:17:02 GMT -5
The people who believe this addition is the worst idea or most dangerous plan will not be swayed by those who feel this will simply be a slight upgrade to what is currently legal in the deer woods, nor will one be swayed the other way. If you think about it, since more than one type of firearm can legally be carried at a time, I 'm certain that HPR's are hanging in tree stands during deer season - for coyote of course.Yep, you know that is happening.
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Post by woody1071 on Nov 5, 2014 21:07:02 GMT -5
Robinhood33 I think you are missing a point. If you have not read the Pennsylvania study you need to. The shotgun slug is dangerous after it drops and hits the ground & ricochets. It retains it's shape & travels as far or farther than HPR when shot from ground level with a slight upward angle. The HPR will stay in the air longer but once it hits ground or brush it fragments and loses a lot of the energy. It is a very interesting study to read.
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Post by steve46511 on Nov 5, 2014 22:13:38 GMT -5
Robinhood33 I think you are missing a point. If you have not read the Pennsylvania study you need to. The shotgun slug is dangerous after it drops and hits the ground & ricochets. It retains it's shape & travels as far or farther than HPR when shot from ground level with a slight upward angle. The HPR will stay in the air longer but once it hits ground or brush it fragments and loses a lot of the energy. It is a very interesting study to read. There is also a point the PA test "misses". Yes.......a slug can ricochet but the LETHALITY of a slug after bouncing around at 500 yards will NEVER even come close to such of a centerfire round bullet at that distance. It's going radically slower to begin with and each time it hits something more speed and more energy is removed from it. At the distance the slug rolls to a STOP.........a rifle round can still KILL something dead by NOT bouncing off anything and flying the entire distance to the object struck. Rifle bullets can KILL at hundreds and hundreds of yards and do so by design. The ACCIDENTAL slug ricocheting doesn't have but a fraction of the energy and will NOT kill "easier" after it has bounced off the ground where it DOES loose even more of the velocity that was ALREADY drastically lower than the rifle bullet by comparison. The ricocheting slug IS dangerous but once it hits the ground it's capabilities to travel far and the energy left is but a decimal point of IT'S initial ballistics. It is a proven fact that rifles kill at longer ranges and WHY people use them instead of slugs. Period. I agree use of rifle rounds in general will not create undue dangerous situations but that is due to the people thinking when they shoot them. In brush situations the slug will normally out penetrate the brush over a rifle round and in THIS situation (as I said before) the slug has inherent dangers but there is NO CONTEST when it comes to long range capabilities to cause damage or death compared to a rifle bullet. That is WHY people shoot rifles and WHY some prefer even faster than normal rounds and MOST centerfire rounds, not just some, are completely out of the realm in speed of anything a slug could EVER produce at long range. No one has ever killed squat at 500 yards with a slug both for trajectory AND ALL ballistic capabilities but thousands of kills are made at 500 yards annually with rifles. Yes a slug can ricochet. When it does the energy is radially reduced and the then deformed slug looses range and energy even FASTER than before. At the same distance a slug can bounce and ricochet and roll.........a rifle will kill you DEAD. Rifles are not more dangerous than slug guns BUT they CAN kill at SEVERAL times the distance a slug can even travel AT ALL (in the air, off the ground, on the ground added all together)........and when it gets there it is barely moving by comparison. Also as said. Regardless of which you support. You will find "studies" supporting your belief but it is a well know, proved for hundreds of years that..... RIFLES KILL FURTHER and that IS their entire purpose. and DO SO WAY beyond ranges you could kill something with a slug gun ON PURPOSE.....so when "bouncing around", slugs cannot be and are not.....as lethal as the rifle bullet. God Bless
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Post by drs on Nov 6, 2014 5:26:06 GMT -5
Less face it, that in high population Counties, areas near large cities; folks will ask for an ordinance prohibiting the use of H.P. rifles in their County. Especially if there is an accident involving a high powered rifle.
Most likely if Indiana does pass a law legalizing high powered rifles; it will be in those counties like Washington & other hilly counties where the "people" population is less.
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Post by trapperdave on Nov 6, 2014 5:35:01 GMT -5
what many of yall dont seem to get ....is a pumpkin ball from a 12 gauge bounces downrange like a cannon ball bouncing here and there. Rifle bullets fragment and disintegrate on impact.
Its been studied and PROVEN rifles are safer.
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Post by M4Madness on Nov 6, 2014 6:26:27 GMT -5
Most likely if Indiana does pass a law legalizing high powered rifles; it will be in those counties like Washington & other hilly counties where the "people" population is less. I'd be willing to wager that they will be allowed statewide, as I don't think Indiana has any intentions of drawing dividing lines or pockmarking the state with rifle and non-rifle counties.
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Post by firstwd on Nov 6, 2014 6:33:26 GMT -5
If passed, I believe they will only be restricted the same places the guns in general are restricted.
I'm an avid State Park hunter and I welcome the inclusion. People keep expressing concern that people and buildings will get shot, but seem to have no consideration that people will be safer if for no other reason than to not go to jail.
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Post by dbd870 on Nov 6, 2014 7:15:53 GMT -5
Most likely if Indiana does pass a law legalizing high powered rifles; it will be in those counties like Washington & other hilly counties where the "people" population is less. I'd be willing to wager that they will be allowed statewide, as I don't think Indiana has any intentions of drawing dividing lines or pockmarking the state with rifle and non-rifle counties. Agreed.
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