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Post by swilk on Feb 2, 2015 10:55:42 GMT -5
I bet she has and is ..... her points are valid. Her points are invalid when talking high fence and CWD I disagree. She asked about size of the enclosure. She asked about undeniable proof. She also made not of how our deer are held on a higher pedestal than most other animals ..... All seem pretty valid to me. Like most things it is rarely black and white .... size matters and nostalgia matters. How much it matters depends on the individual.
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Post by greghopper on Feb 2, 2015 10:58:40 GMT -5
No one knows it orgin ...... It is mainly spread though captive deer just goggle CWD and see the results!!!
There is no live valid test for CWD .... Once found they kill all cevids in area!!
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Post by greghopper on Feb 2, 2015 11:05:24 GMT -5
Her points are invalid when talking high fence and CWD I disagree. She asked about size of the enclosure. She asked about undeniable proof. She also made not of how our deer are held on a higher pedestal than most other animals ..... All seem pretty valid to me. Like most things it is rarely black and white .... size matters and nostalgia matters. How much it matters depends on the individual. Size of enclosure has nothing to do with CWD .... Maybe fair chase!! I guess we're talking two subject here ...CWD and Fair chase
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Post by span870 on Feb 2, 2015 11:06:08 GMT -5
Yes it is spread through captive deer. It is also spread through wild deer. Wild deer that have had no contact with those captive deer.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2015 11:06:30 GMT -5
When it comes to high fence, size matters, BIG TIME! No one in their right mind could consider Big Oaks, for example, unsporting because of the fence. The place is over 50,000 acres.
As far as disease goes, that too would depend on size and conditions. If the deer are bred and raised in captivity or brought into small feeding or breeding enclosures, that's very different than a wild herd in a huge property that just happens to have a fence around the border.
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Post by greghopper on Feb 2, 2015 11:10:41 GMT -5
The fence at Big Oaks is not escape proof. So the fair chase argument is in valid
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2015 11:13:25 GMT -5
The fence at Big Oaks is not escape proof. So the fair chase argument is in valid I agree, but would argue it to be fair chase even if it was escape proof. That place about 1/3 the size of a county. The fence is irrelevant.
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Post by jjas on Feb 2, 2015 11:30:18 GMT -5
The fence at Big Oaks is not escape proof. So the fair chase argument is in valid I agree, but would argue it to be fair chase even if it was escape proof. That place about 1/3 the size of a county. The fence is irrelevant. So who decides how many acres it takes to constitute fair chase and how many acres would that be?
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Post by swilk on Feb 2, 2015 11:39:06 GMT -5
I disagree. She asked about size of the enclosure. She asked about undeniable proof. She also made not of how our deer are held on a higher pedestal than most other animals ..... All seem pretty valid to me. Like most things it is rarely black and white .... size matters and nostalgia matters. How much it matters depends on the individual. Size of enclosure has nothing to do with CWD .... Maybe fair chase!! I guess we're talking two subject here ...CWD and Fair chase And being the operative word. She addresses both.....
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Post by greghopper on Feb 2, 2015 11:46:37 GMT -5
Swilk
Go ahead and post a quote from her last post that addresses CWD ........ Maybe I missed it!
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Post by swilk on Feb 2, 2015 11:48:30 GMT -5
Scientific proof.....
Enclosure size touches on both cwd and fair chase / ethics.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2015 11:48:58 GMT -5
I agree, but would argue it to be fair chase even if it was escape proof. That place about 1/3 the size of a county. The fence is irrelevant. So who decides how many acres it takes to constitute fair chase and how many acres would that be? Not me!
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Post by ms660 on Feb 2, 2015 11:51:18 GMT -5
When CWD shows up in our States wild deer herd it will arrive riding in the back of a truck wearing an ear tag. it's possible it already did. Time will tell.
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Post by chubwub on Feb 2, 2015 12:08:11 GMT -5
Another question that perplexes me. Why have there been no reported cases anywhere of CWD in the South (with the exception of two small areas in Texas in the mountains of all places) which is basically the deer baiting, deer importing, high fence mecca of the whitetail world? You are allowed to bait deer in Ohio, but why is there only one case of CWD in a captive facility? Texas and Oklahoma should be overrun with CWD I would think with all the game farms they have down there.
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Post by span870 on Feb 2, 2015 12:09:42 GMT -5
Everyone that is fighting tooth and nail to close these farms down, were you fighting as hard to close down fox and coyote running pens too? Is it okay for the cruelty of the pens but not per chance some of your precious deer might die. Are those fair chase? How about the spread of mange in them. Please dont insult me that the dogs dont catch the coyote and fox. I know better. How about my running pen. My dogs have caught rabbits in there. Should that be illegal too. They are domestic rabbits but by some arguments because rabbits can be wild they are not livestock.
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Post by span870 on Feb 2, 2015 12:11:03 GMT -5
Another question that perplexes me. Why have there been no reported cases anywhere of CWD in the South (with the exception of two small areas in Texas in the mountains of all places) which is basically the deer baiting, deer importing, high fence mecca of the whitetail world? You are allowed to bait deer in Ohio, but why is there only one case of CWD in a captive facility? Texas and Oklahoma should be overrun with CWD I would think with all the game farms they have down there. You know the answer as well as I do. You won't hear anyone admit it though.
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Post by ms660 on Feb 2, 2015 12:23:51 GMT -5
Everyone that is fighting tooth and nail to close these farms down, were you fighting as hard to close down fox and coyote running pens too? Is it okay for the cruelty of the pens but not per chance some of your precious deer might die. Are those fair chase? How about the spread of mange in them. Please dont insult me that the dogs dont catch the coyote and fox. I know better. How about my running pen. My dogs have caught rabbits in there. Should that be illegal too. They are domestic rabbits but by some arguments because rabbits can be wild they are not livestock. So, are you for or against the deer killing pens? What was your stance on the running pens? Your post is confusing to me.
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Post by jjas on Feb 2, 2015 12:34:01 GMT -5
So who decides how many acres it takes to constitute fair chase and how many acres would that be? Not me! Nor me. I would imagine the politicians will have the final say.....
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Post by span870 on Feb 2, 2015 13:12:41 GMT -5
I'm for them. You want to. Have at it. Have several buddies that raise deer for them. The deer are livestock pure and simple. No different than cattle. No one complains about the cows being killed, why deer. Am I for coyote pens. These are filled with WILD animals released into a pen. Not a huge fan of setting 10 dogs in a small enclosure and basically running the yote until it is caught. Same as I'm not a fan of 5 acre deer farms offering hunts. I've been on several high fence hunts. One was hogs in over 1000 acres. We chased one with dogs for over 5 hours until it made the mistake of charging us instead of running. Otherwise we would probably still be chasing. Been to an elk farm. 500 acres. Tried to kill a specific bull. Four days and I went home empty handed. Been on several pheasent hunts. Fun but it is what it is. Let me ask you. Have you ever been on one or inside one? Or are you going by what a friend of a friend said? There are good and bad. But they are what they are. An enclosure to keep people out and LIVESTOCK in. Wild animals caught and released in there to be killed would be a different story. Now what's your stance on any animal besides deer or even deer? For or against?
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Post by ms660 on Feb 2, 2015 14:33:30 GMT -5
Believe me there are people complaining about the slaughter of cattle, hogs, chickens, or any animal that man has domesticated to fill his stomach . Been in many running pens never a deer pen, I was a supplier of coyotes for several pens, in state and out before they the live market restrictions were made. Some pens were very well put together and and maintained were from 500 to 1000 plus acres. In those a coyote could survive without the help of man and the pen owners were very protective of the coyotes. Some pens the owners only cared about the cash and nothing more. If the lowly coyote grew a set of antlers and brought in the amount of money deer bring to our state these pens would still be running more than likely. Since CWD is in states on both sides of us and abov, it's just a mater of time before it gets here from non domesticated deer, but when it does I feel it will be slow to spread and isolated and somewhat managed by man. Ebola would not be a concern for the USA if people were banned from entering this counrty, harsh but very effective solution quite like the CWD problem. If a farmer wants to raise venison for the meat market with strict state transport restrictions. I'm fine with it. If they want geniticly alter a deer to grow freakish huge antlers and put them in a 5 acre pen after the "hunter" has picked out and paid to have this deer shooed past him to shoot for an ego boost that disgusts me. It's a disgrace what deer antlers has turned man into and the methods he uses to get them.
If a place that's fenced is large enough to allow a deer to survive, reproduce and live a natural life without the help of man even though a fence surround this I would be fine with hunting being allowed with the states deer hunting regulations being enforced. Growing freak deer and putting them inside I would not no matter the number of acres it encloses.
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