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Post by chubwub on Feb 3, 2015 10:08:05 GMT -5
So if the concern is importation of deer that could be carrying CWD, would high fence be okay if it was restricted to local animals only and the only thing that could be transported across state lines is semen and embryos? I have a hard time understanding why only deer is the focus of such scrutiny but other species which carry the wasting disease are subjected to a much more reasonable set of regulations. I also do not understand why there is such a reaction to the deer, but cows and sheep which also have their forms of the disease are not banned from traveling across state lines. We cram these animals into feedlots by the thousands, shipping them from auctions all over the states to be finished out which I would think would increase the chances of getting scrapie or BSE as well and no one bats an eye. It is of interest to note that Colorado is the 3rd largest producer of sheep in the U.S where CWD is found to have originated and contains the largest lamb finishing lot in the U.S, which of course is where CWD was first found. It is also interesting to note that this feedlot www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2013/10/22/238899518/ranchers-worry-as-demand-for-sheep-declines is in Ault Colorado and has been in existence for about 40 years. The feedlot is in proximity to state ground on all sides and has plenty of crop fields. This feedlot is also 35 minutes away from the research facility where it was first discovered in captive deer in 1967 at Fort Collins. I can see why there is some speculation that CWD may have originated from scrapie. There is definitely something more at play the to say that putting a fence around some deer all of a sudden will give them CWD. Heck researchers can't even tell us where these prions are coming from... are they manufactured by a virus we haven't discovered yet, is it a sporadic mutation that occurs in the PRPC protein, and if so what causes the spontaneous mutation? Does it originate from some random fungi that contain PRPC? Is it a lentivirus? I somewhat disagree with forcing farmers to bear the sole burden for clean-up when it comes to discovering that their herd has CWD. I think that this kind of attitude will make them much more likely to try and hide their problem as opposed to working with researchers. You also run the risk of having this farmer cutting corners with the clean-up and not adequately decontaminating the area because he cannot afford it, which in the long run just makes things worse and increases the chances of CWD spreading.
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Post by jjas on Feb 3, 2015 10:29:58 GMT -5
chubwud
The only way I would go along with this is if all high fence operators pay into a fund that is used to help pay for clean up in case CWD occurs.
If you reap the rewards, you should bear responsibility for the messes you potentially help create.
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Post by Woody Williams on Feb 3, 2015 10:48:35 GMT -5
Please stick to the subject... You all are getting very close to personal stuff..... Don't worry Woody, I am through discussing this topic. Too bad it ended up this way. David, That was directed at everyone in this thread, OK? WW
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Post by drs on Feb 3, 2015 10:51:59 GMT -5
Don't worry Woody, I am through discussing this topic. Too bad it ended up this way. David, That was directed at everyone in this thread, OK? WW Thanks, I understand, Woody.
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Post by hunterman on Feb 3, 2015 13:11:26 GMT -5
Understood WW, I think everyone loves a good debate, especially if the dialog consist only of facts and experience and mere opinions don't overshadow the discussion.
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Post by chubwub on Feb 3, 2015 14:46:41 GMT -5
chubwud The only way I would go along with this is if all high fence operators pay into a fund that is used to help pay for clean up in case CWD occurs. If you reap the rewards, you should bear responsibility for the messes you potentially help create. Agreed, but I would argue that CWD cannot be directly attributed to poor deer management because we know so little about how it is contracted and spread, I think it is a little unfair to put all the blame and responsibility on deer farmers for this. We willingly help farmers recoup the losses due to wildlife predation even though supposedly people want to say that if you take all necessary precautions you will never have an attack. It's not like farmers are thrilled about finding CWD in their herds. A system built to destroy and tear someone down doesn't really make for very cooperative or productive people. It's really easy to put the hammer down on other people's way of life that you may not agree with until one day, the hammer has been turned around and focused on your way of life. Just my humble opinion.
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Post by jjas on Feb 3, 2015 15:07:42 GMT -5
chubwud The only way I would go along with this is if all high fence operators pay into a fund that is used to help pay for clean up in case CWD occurs. If you reap the rewards, you should bear responsibility for the messes you potentially help create. Agreed, but I would argue that CWD cannot be directly attributed to poor deer management because we know so little about how it is contracted and spread, I think it is a little unfair to put all the blame and responsibility on deer farmers for this. We willingly help farmers recoup the losses due to wildlife predation even though supposedly people want to say that if you take all necessary precautions you will never have an attack. It's not like farmers are thrilled about finding CWD in their herds. A system built to destroy and tear someone down doesn't really make for very cooperative or productive people. It's really easy to put the hammer down on other people's way of life that you may not agree with until one day, the hammer has been turned around and focused on your way of life. Just my humble opinion. If CWD is found in one of these places the owner should be held financially responsible for cleaning up the mess and they certainly shouldn't expect the Indiana taxpayers to help clean up the mess.
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Post by hunterman on Feb 3, 2015 15:22:55 GMT -5
JJAS, With that logic then you would agree that if a wild deer in Indiana spread CWD then the state would be responsible for all the clean up and money lost because of it, correct ? I dont think anyone would argue with that.
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Post by jjas on Feb 3, 2015 15:44:33 GMT -5
JJAS, With that logic then you would agree that if a wild deer in Indiana spread CWD then the state would be responsible for all the clean up and money lost because of it, correct ? I dont think anyone would argue with that. IMHO, any deer that is part of a preserve or farm should be tagged and chipped. That way if there is an occurrence of CWD the owners of the preserve/farm would be liable for the clean up and financial losses.
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Post by chubwub on Feb 3, 2015 16:01:31 GMT -5
If CWD is found in one of these places the owner should be held financially responsible for cleaning up the mess and they certainly shouldn't expect the Indiana taxpayers to help clean up the mess. Yeah, we taxpayers foot the bill for far more stupid things than this. At least this time my money would be going to someone who is a legal United States citizen. I think it is a little ironic to have that kind of expectation, especially since the first known case of CWD was not found in a deer farm but in a goverment run facility known as Colorado Division of Wildlife Foothills Wildlife Research Facility in Fort Collins, Colorado. The second case was found in Wyoming Fish and Game Department's Sybille wildlife research facility. Then in the 80's it was found in the wild cervids in the areas surrounding these places. Soooo, yeah... how exactly is this all the private deer farmer's fault again? So in reality, should we as hunters actually be footing the bill to the deer farmers since it was taxpayer funded research that appears to have started all this or is it actually the sheep farmers that need to foot the bill if we discover that scrapie is actually the cause? The blame game and playing hot potato of who has to foot the bill on this gets us nowhere. Deer farmers, researchers, DNR and hunters all need to be united as one to fund, solve, and eradicate this virus from ALL wild and captive cervids.
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Post by hunterman on Feb 3, 2015 16:01:31 GMT -5
They are all identified, that's already a requirement. I think you should offer and pursue your suggestions to those establishing regulations. I think you will be surprised to find the deer farms would agree with you. Unfortunately the State really doesn't see cwd as enough of a threat to spend any kind of resources or money towards it. Thats a simple fact. They already know cwd is in wild deer and know its not worth opening up that box. The deer farmers absolutely dont want it because it is certain financial ruin for them personally. They are testing 100% where the state is testing less than 1%. Who do you honestly think is concerned.
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Post by shouldernuke on Feb 3, 2015 16:11:31 GMT -5
JUST ONE!!! Let's break this down. You say the way it is spread is by bringing infected deer into farms and it spreads from there to wild deer. Someone that has no idea what they are talking about will read this and say hmmm. That's the only way. How about spinal fluid, brain matter, internal organs. Why if this is the only way do state restrict bringing deer parts from infected areas into non infected areas? Don't forget that there is studies at this time that are pointing to a direct link to Deer urine products and deer feces that is now being sold to hunters .Some states have stated that they are ready to ban the use and sales of those products because the prions are being found in those two things from infected deer .It is quickly becoming evident that this may be the main cause of the spread of CWD to areas previously unaffected. Since hunters spread deer pee around like white wash fence paint . Many here may want to google those current studies .FYI the deer scent market is heavily into a smear campaign to stop any ban of the use of their products read sources carefully when researching this .Some are very bias.
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Post by jjas on Feb 3, 2015 16:29:58 GMT -5
This is real simple. If someone wants to be a deer farmer or preserve owner, then they assume the responsibility of their enterprise and I hope the state makes that abundantly clear to the owner/operators.
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Post by hunterman on Feb 3, 2015 17:28:31 GMT -5
jjas, Im glad we agree, Whats good for the goose is good for the gander.
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Post by throbak on Feb 3, 2015 19:15:30 GMT -5
I think a proactive approach Is Lots better than a reactive responce nothing starts out an epidemic and early detection rapid response is necessary Take it out of the DNR,s hand give it to the USDA let the Deer (Farmers ) deal with the feds and I dont care what the cost let them add it to the cost of their Killing some people seem to want.. And test EVERY DEER killed on their farms and when CWD is found Kill EVERY DEER on there farm and if it came from a Indiana source kill all of theirs also at their cost since the cwd is a imaginary diesese that is not a problem HUNTERMAN or who ever you are their should not be a problem with that I wouldn't think now would there ??
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Post by hunterman on Feb 3, 2015 19:30:13 GMT -5
I can live and die by the sword but you would have to do the same. So you are saying if CWD is found in the wild they should kill all the states deer so they dont spread it to the deer farms ? You get that approved by the hunters and the state and the deer farmers will stand right beside you. With your logic there would be 4 states that need to kill all their deer cause they have cwd in the wild but they have never had a deer farm or hunting preserve, Please explain. How can those States wild deer jeopardize everything else, why aren't you outraged ? If you put your personal emotions and agenda aside you will see how impossible your argument is.
Just explain this one fact. There are many but if you can give a reasonable and logical explanation to this one thing I will join you in your fight. The State test less than 1% of the harvested deer in Indiana for CWD. IF CWD was a serious threat why do they not test more.
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Post by ms660 on Feb 3, 2015 23:23:51 GMT -5
Was it last year or the year before when a high fence deer pen or deer breeder in Indiana received a load of deer from an out of state pen (PA I think was the state) whose facility test positive for CWD and had these deer escape after a storm blew a tree over on the fence smashing it. What ever happened in that ordeal? I know everybody in the area it happened in was told to kill or report all deer with a yellow tag in its ear they see in the wild to the IDNR quick as possible. Were all these deer accounted for and did any test positive for CWD? I was thinking a doe was never found, but I could be wrong I know it was a hot topic on the Indiana hunting forums for several weeks
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Post by GS1 on Feb 4, 2015 0:28:53 GMT -5
Just explain this one fact. There are many but if you can give a reasonable and logical explanation to this one thing I will join you in your fight. The State test less than 1% of the harvested deer in Indiana for CWD. IF CWD was a serious threat why do they not test more. Just out of curiosity, would you happen to know the percentage of deer tested in, say Wisconsin, both before and immediately after it was discovered there? I realize they have now reduced the number of test per year to concentrate more on the areas surrounding the infected areas.
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Post by Woody Williams on Feb 4, 2015 9:17:52 GMT -5
The owners of the facilities are what I call "true believers". That could be "true believers" in the service that they provide or the money that they receive. But "true believers" none the less. "True believers" never quit.. they keep plugging away. I don't degrade them as I am a "true believer" myself. I've pushed numerous items to get passed. Most came to fruit. With that in mind here is what I believe. Shooting preserves will happen so here is my input to the pols......
As a long time deer hunter in the state of Indiana I would like to voice my opinion on “cervid farming/shooting pens” in the state of Indiana.
I do not believe that deer should be sold to the highest bidder. It is my opinion that the commercialization of wildlife will doom the sport of hunting. Therefore I am opposed to any cervid farming for the purpose of selling the animal to be shot on any fenced facility for sport.
I do not have a problem with cervids being farmed for the expressed purpose of meat, velvet, antlers, urine or semen.
Hunting already has a rough row to hoe fighting off the ant-hunters and trying to recruit more hunters. We do not need anything that casts a bad light on hunting.
There is no doubt in my mind that ANY penned “hunting”, canned or otherwise, will be used by the anti-hunters as further proof that we hunters care about nothing but killing. Of course nothing could be further from the truth. But, that will be ammunition for them.
IF they are allowed to keep up their “deer farming/shooting” then I think strong and enforced regulations should be in place.
My recommendations are:
Size of facility:
1) Nothing less than 600 acres should be considered for a “shooting preserve”. Of that amount, half should be adequate cover for the deer’s escape. 2) No “grand fathering” in of existing smaller facilities for “shooting preserves”. 3) Deer farming for meat, velvet, urine or semen can be any size within the realms of humane treatment of the animals.
Fencing
1) All fences around ANY deer farm or shooting preserve should be 10 foot tall. Deer can easily clear an 8 foot fence. 2) Because of the possibilities of disease spread back and forth between the fence with native whitetails ALL deer farm or shooting preserves should be double fenced with 10 foot fences. A friend of mine had a captive herd and was constantly repairing the fence because his bucks would fight through the fence with wild bucks. He had lost several deer through a hole that was created by this fighting. A double fence would lessen the possibility of escape and/or disease spread.. 3) A single fence can be compromised by fallen trees or large tree limbs.
Diseases
1) A major subject for debate has been whether or not these type facilities further the spread of diseases such as CWD and Bovine TB. I would want all deer within these facilities to be checked for CWD and Bovine TB at their slaughter. As soon as a reliable live test is made available ALL deer within the facility should be tested and those records made available to the pertinent authorities.
Jurisdiction
1) Since the whitetail deer is most commonly known as a wild animal in the state of Indiana and a dead whitetail in the back of a truck could very well come from the wild or a “shooting preserve” I would request that jurisdiction over these facilities be under the jurisdiction of the Indiana Department of Natural Resources. 2) All present game regulations, required licenses and seasons would have to be adhered to. 3) As with any other properties that are deer hunted, the deer farms would be subject to unannounced visitation by the IDNR. 4) IF BOAH is in charge of the shooting pens then all regulations pertaining to the humane treatment, health of the animals, the slaughter of such and the processing must be adhered to.
Advertising
1) If “shooting preserves” are allowed I would like to request that they NOT be allowed to advertise their services as “hunting”. As stated previously hunting is going to be taking a hit on these type of operations. They may call it slaughter, harvest or anything they want as long as the words “hunt” or “hunting” are not included in the wording.
Record Keeping
1) All animals that are on the facility should be identified with an electronic chip, tattoo or ear tag as to what/which animal they are. 2) All animals that are received and taken out of the facility (dead or alive) need to be recorded along with any pertinent information such as diseases, etc. 3) All bucks antlers need to be plugged with an identifying plug so as the trophy record keeping organizations can differentiate them from wild deer.
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Post by Woody Williams on Feb 4, 2015 9:18:58 GMT -5
Was it last year or the year before when a high fence deer pen or deer breeder in Indiana received a load of deer from an out of state pen (PA I think was the state) whose facility test positive for CWD and had these deer escape after a storm blew a tree over on the fence smashing it. What ever happened in that ordeal? I know everybody in the area it happened in was told to kill or report all deer with a yellow tag in its ear they see in the wild to the IDNR quick as possible. Were all these deer accounted for and did any test positive for CWD? I was thinking a doe was never found, but I could be wrong I know it was a hot topic on the Indiana hunting forums for several weeks True...But I believe it was one buck that was unaccounted for..
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