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Post by hunterman on Feb 2, 2015 14:48:49 GMT -5
CWD is about the weakest argument used against deer farms. CWD has been prevalent over 50 yrs and has not yet caused a wipe out or major threat to deer anywhere. Deer do not live long enough in Indiana to be affected anyway. If it were a serious issue the State would test more than .08% of harvested deer to find and combat the issue. That alone proves they truly are not concerned but rather use it for a scare tactic. Could you imagine if a bill was introduced to force the DNR and/or hunter to have every animal tested as they are on a deer farm. The DNR and every hunter would be lined up to testify that its not a big deal. (At least not a big enough deal for them to pay $120 for the test) I have no problem with arguments for or against hunting preserves. Just believe in your argument 100%.
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Post by greghopper on Feb 2, 2015 15:32:23 GMT -5
Another question that perplexes me. Why have there been no reported cases anywhere of CWD in the South (with the exception of two small areas in Texas in the mountains of all places) which is basically the deer baiting, deer importing, high fence mecca of the whitetail world? You are allowed to bait deer in Ohio, but why is there only one case of CWD in a captive facility? Texas and Oklahoma should be overrun with CWD I would think with all the game farms they have down there. Regulations is what keeps most states from from having/getting CWD. Indiana doesn't allow the Importing cervids that come from a state that has ever found CWD!! Here are some links... www.in.gov/boah/2638.htmwww.in.gov/boah/files/CWD_Proposed_Rule_12-491.pdf
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Post by span870 on Feb 2, 2015 15:41:21 GMT -5
Believe me there are people complaining about the slaughter of cattle, hogs, chickens, or any animal that man has domesticated to fill his stomach . Been in many running pens never a deer pen, I was a supplier of coyotes for several pens, in state and out before they the live market restrictions were made. Some pens were very well put together and and maintained were from 500 to 1000 plus acres. In those a coyote could survive without the help of man and the pen owners were very protective of the coyotes. Some pens the owners only cared about the cash and nothing more. If the lowly coyote grew a set of antlers and brought in the amount of money deer bring to our state these pens would still be running more than likely. Since CWD is in states on both sides of us and abov, it's just a mater of time before it gets here from non domesticated deer, but when it does I feel it will be slow to spread and isolated and somewhat managed by man. Ebola would not be a concern for the USA if people were banned from entering this counrty, harsh but very effective solution quite like the CWD problem. If a farmer wants to raise venison for the meat market with strict state transport restrictions. I'm fine with it. If they want geniticly alter a deer to grow freakish huge antlers and put them in a 5 acre pen after the "hunter" has picked out and paid to have this deer shooed past him to shoot for an ego boost that disgusts me. It's a disgrace what deer antlers has turned man into and the methods he uses to get them. If a place that's fenced is large enough to allow a deer to survive, reproduce and live a natural life without the help of man even though a fence surround this I would be fine with hunting being allowed with the states deer hunting regulations being enforced. Growing freak deer and putting them inside I would not no matter the number of acres it encloses. An honest opinion and I respect that 100%. What I don't understand is that you are okay with taking a wild animal and putting them into confinement and they be killed but not okay with raising a deer as livestock and killing it in confinement. I know and you know the dirty business that some of those pens were. Coyotes didn't survive in even the biggest ones without the deer carcasses thrown in there for food. Most of all were eventually caught by the dogs and killed otherwise you wouldn't have had repeat business. You were okay with making money off a wild animal and putting it into captivity but if someone else wants to with a tame deer they don't have that right. It comes down to one reason. Its a coyote and no one cares. I'm not trying to bash you. You were at least honest about your stance and I respect that more than talking to some about it who act like politicians dancing around the topic. You are right though, if coyotes had 180" antlers than there would still be running pens. Most dont care about any other behind a high fence. Where is the argument to shut down rabbit pens, pheasent preserves, coon and squirrel pens?
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Post by chubwub on Feb 2, 2015 15:59:45 GMT -5
Whaaaaaat? People actually have squirrel pens? Okay I have to know... what purpose does a squirrel pen serve? Do people actually have fancy training pens to train dogs for squirrels? I though all dogs were born with a natural love of killing and chasing squirrels even if they were floozy little Pomeranians.
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Post by span870 on Feb 2, 2015 16:14:48 GMT -5
Whaaaaaat? People actually have squirrel pens? Okay I have to know... what purpose does a squirrel pen serve? Do people actually have fancy training pens to train dogs for squirrels? I though all dogs were born with a natural love of killing and chasing squirrels even if they were floozy little Pomeranians. Yes they do. There is a real neat one in Kentucky. Its 5 acres with hot wires on the inside, 4 rows. All the trees surrounding it were cut away to prevent squirrels getting out. Feeders are placed all over to get squirrels on the ground so dogs can chase them. You'll find out if a hound will chase it for the most part there are training pens for it. The only exceptions I doubt would be bear and lion. Bay pens for hogs, rabbit running pens, coons. And yes even the ol squirrel
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Post by ms660 on Feb 2, 2015 21:05:54 GMT -5
It's evident that somebody cared about the coyote the running pens were shut down.
What I was told first hand by the pen owners was that by far the biggest reason for the needed supply of yotes to the pens was not from dog kills rather than dig out and escapes.Keeping miles of fence coyote escape proof was hard to do. If one found a way out the majority also found it before it was discovered. Yes, I was told there were dog kills but when it did happen it usually were large dominates male coyote that died. They would rather take a stand and fight. Rarely did the dogs actually run down catch and kill the coyotes when given ample space to run. NOW whether all this was true, I don't know, but at the time I believed it there were no reasons for them to lie about it to me anyway.
I never got a good feeling about supplying coyotes to the pens. I hated everything about the process it took doing it except for the actual setting up my line and running it. Taking care of 30-50 penned coyotes while waiting on a pen to call was a total PITA. Hell taking one out of the trap alive was usually an adrenalin rush and always a risk. Feeding, watering ,and keeping the holding pens up to humane standards was endless work. I will always be a trapper and oppose any law that threatens it. Yes, in the past I was a cog in the process of the running pens, right or wrong a process if legal today I would not partake in.
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Post by span870 on Feb 2, 2015 21:13:33 GMT -5
It's evident that somebody cared about the coyote the running pens were shut down. What I was told first hand by the pen owners was that by far the biggest reason for the needed supply of yotes to the pens was not from dog kills rather than dig out and escapes. If one found a way out the majority also found it before it was discovered. Yes, I was told there were dog kills but when it did happen it usually were large dominates male coyote that died. They would rather take a stand and fight. Rarely did the dogs actually run down catch and kill the coyotes when given ample space to run. NOW whether all this was true, I don't know, but at the time I believed it there were no reasons for them to lie about it to me anyway. I never got a good feeling about supplying coyotes to the pens. I hated everything about the process it took doing it except for the actual setting up my line and running it. Taking care of 30-50 penned coyotes while waiting on a pen to call was a total PITA. Hell taking one out of the trap alive was usually an adrenalin rush and always a risk. Feeding, watering ,and keeping the holding pens up to humane standards was endless work. I will always be a trapper and oppose any law that threatens it. Yes, in the past I was a cog in the process of the running pens, a process if legal today I would not partake in. Thanks for the honesty. As far as the live coyotes, I had a buddy that supplied live coons for pens. He trapped a total of 4 before he was done. He said the last one took 10 minutes to get out, tore the trap up, tore him and his brother up, and in the end escaped. He said he'll shoot everyone in the head with a .22 before he tries to release one. This is a man who does 300+ coons a year. I can imagine a coyote would be ten times worse.
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Post by ms660 on Feb 2, 2015 23:11:31 GMT -5
I just seen the other post on the courts decision on high fence hunting. What will happen now. With this decision will the coyote pens be allowed also. How can one be allowed and the other not?? I think I will start up a fence building business in the near future.
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Post by ms660 on Feb 2, 2015 23:18:20 GMT -5
It's evident that somebody cared about the coyote the running pens were shut down. What I was told first hand by the pen owners was that by far the biggest reason for the needed supply of yotes to the pens was not from dog kills rather than dig out and escapes. If one found a way out the majority also found it before it was discovered. Yes, I was told there were dog kills but when it did happen it usually were large dominates male coyote that died. They would rather take a stand and fight. Rarely did the dogs actually run down catch and kill the coyotes when given ample space to run. NOW whether all this was true, I don't know, but at the time I believed it there were no reasons for them to lie about it to me anyway. I never got a good feeling about supplying coyotes to the pens. I hated everything about the process it took doing it except for the actual setting up my line and running it. Taking care of 30-50 penned coyotes while waiting on a pen to call was a total PITA. Hell taking one out of the trap alive was usually an adrenalin rush and always a risk. Feeding, watering ,and keeping the holding pens up to humane standards was endless work. I will always be a trapper and oppose any law that threatens it. Yes, in the past I was a cog in the process of the running pens, a process if legal today I would not partake in. Thanks for the honesty. As far as the live coyotes, I had a buddy that supplied live coons for pens. He trapped a total of 4 before he was done. He said the last one took 10 minutes to get out, tore the trap up, tore him and his brother up, and in the end escaped. He said he'll shoot everyone in the head with a .22 before he tries to release one. This is a man who does 300+ coons a year. I can imagine a coyote would be ten times worse. Our K9 trapping season comes in several weeks before the coon season and coons must be released. Many are caught in fox and coyote sets. A good catch pole is a must for releasing coons. Releasing bobcats is what raises my blood pressure and make me week in the knees.
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Post by drs on Feb 3, 2015 5:24:47 GMT -5
For those who didn't know; CWD (Chronic Wasting Disease) was first observed in Northeast Colorado, back in 1967. The way it is introduced to other wild Deer herds in other States, is the import of an infected animal placed in these High Fenced areas. This infected Deer or Elk may not show signs of the disease in it's early stage. You started with a fact and ended with a statement. It is ASSUMED introduced to wild deer herds. For those who didn't know; CWD (Chronic Wasting Disease) was first observed in Northeast Colorado, back in 1967. The way it is introduced to other wild Deer herds in other States, is the import of an infected animal placed in these High Fenced areas. This infected Deer or Elk may not show signs of the disease in it's early stage.
Where in my post is the word "ASSUMED" ?
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Post by drs on Feb 3, 2015 5:39:20 GMT -5
Everyone that is fighting tooth and nail to close these farms down, were you fighting as hard to close down fox and coyote running pens too? Is it okay for the cruelty of the pens but not per chance some of your precious deer might die. Are those fair chase? How about the spread of mange in them. Please dont insult me that the dogs dont catch the coyote and fox. I know better. How about my running pen. My dogs have caught rabbits in there. Should that be illegal too. They are domestic rabbits but by some arguments because rabbits can be wild they are not livestock. From your post, it sounds like you are in favor of "High Fence Hunting". This is one industry that will spread CWD to wild herds. IMHO there should NOT be any wildlife species "penned-up" for hunting. Those in favor of High Fenced Hunting and species of wild game animals are not true Sportsmen.Your statement that domestic rabbits are not livestock is incorrect. There are many that raise rabbits for food & fur; and some raise them for pets.
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Post by span870 on Feb 3, 2015 6:54:35 GMT -5
You started with a fact and ended with a statement. It is ASSUMED introduced to wild deer herds. For those who didn't know; CWD (Chronic Wasting Disease) was first observed in Northeast Colorado, back in 1967. The way it is introduced to other wild Deer herds in other States, is the import of an infected animal placed in these High Fenced areas. This infected Deer or Elk may not show signs of the disease in it's early stage.
Where in my post is the word "ASSUMED" ? I put the assumed in there. No case has ever been 100% confirmed to have spread from a farm not wild deer. It is assumed that's what happened.
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Post by span870 on Feb 3, 2015 7:01:40 GMT -5
Everyone that is fighting tooth and nail to close these farms down, were you fighting as hard to close down fox and coyote running pens too? Is it okay for the cruelty of the pens but not per chance some of your precious deer might die. Are those fair chase? How about the spread of mange in them. Please dont insult me that the dogs dont catch the coyote and fox. I know better. How about my running pen. My dogs have caught rabbits in there. Should that be illegal too. They are domestic rabbits but by some arguments because rabbits can be wild they are not livestock. From your post, it sounds like you are in favor of "High Fence Hunting". This is one industry that will spread CWD to wild herds. IMHO there should NOT be any wildlife species "penned-up" for hunting. Those in favor of High Fenced Hunting and species of wild game animals are not true Sportsmen.Your statement that domestic rabbits are not livestock is incorrect. There are many that raise rabbits for food & fur; and some raise them for pets. My stance is domestic rabbits ARE livestock. Just as deer, elk, and every other animal that is raised from birth, lives, and dies in captivity. They should be regulated as livestock. I believe most feel deer aren't because they occur in the wild in Indiana. My point is no one cares if I raise rabbits and shoot them. Same with game birds. But as soon as someone puts a deer in a pen its wrong. I've stated before and I'll do it again. I have no problem with high fences. I'm a realist. Cwd is here. Its been here. I also leave my heart out of the equation and can see that again, any animal born, raised, and killed by Websters definition on livestock is, livestock.
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Post by span870 on Feb 3, 2015 7:09:00 GMT -5
Everyone that is fighting tooth and nail to close these farms down, were you fighting as hard to close down fox and coyote running pens too? Is it okay for the cruelty of the pens but not per chance some of your precious deer might die. Are those fair chase? How about the spread of mange in them. Please dont insult me that the dogs dont catch the coyote and fox. I know better. How about my running pen. My dogs have caught rabbits in there. Should that be illegal too. They are domestic rabbits but by some arguments because rabbits can be wild they are not livestock. From your post, it sounds like you are in favor of "High Fence Hunting". This is one industry that will spread CWD to wild herds. IMHO there should NOT be any wildlife species "penned-up" for hunting. Those in favor of High Fenced Hunting and species of wild game animals are not true Sportsmen.Your statement that domestic rabbits are not livestock is incorrect. There are many that raise rabbits for food & fur; and some raise them for pets. Again I'll ask the question that only one person that is against high fence hunting has answered. If deer are born, raised, and slaughtered behind a fence are you against that also? Raised and slaughtered just like cattle. I've made the statement rabbits are livestock and you agreed. Are deer the same? To quote you there are many that raise DEER for food, fur, and pets. What is a wild animal? These aren't wild animals. My rabbits aren't wild animals. Pheasent and quail raised the same aren't wild animals. How are these deer wild.
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Post by greghopper on Feb 3, 2015 7:25:03 GMT -5
For those who didn't know; CWD (Chronic Wasting Disease) was first observed in Northeast Colorado, back in 1967. The way it is introduced to other wild Deer herds in other States, is the import of an infected animal placed in these High Fenced areas. This infected Deer or Elk may not show signs of the disease in it's early stage.
Where in my post is the word "ASSUMED" ? I put the assumed in there. No case has ever been 100% confirmed to have spread from a farm not wild deer. It is assumed that's what happened. It is also "ASSUMED" that it came from wild deer!! They find a lot/most of CWD in fenced Deer vs wild Deer!!!
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Post by span870 on Feb 3, 2015 7:30:57 GMT -5
I put the assumed in there. No case has ever been 100% confirmed to have spread from a farm not wild deer. It is assumed that's what happened. It is also "ASSUMED" that it came from wild deer!! They find a lot/most of CWD in fenced Deer vs wild Deer!!! Yep. But that is everyone's argument why they should be banned. It gets thrown around that's how it's spreading. That farmer takes that risk. Same as I believe every farmer should take the risk on his livestock. If you raise cattle and they get sick that is your problem not mine or taxpayers. Show me where it spread outside that fence.
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Post by drs on Feb 3, 2015 8:09:28 GMT -5
For those who didn't know; CWD (Chronic Wasting Disease) was first observed in Northeast Colorado, back in 1967. The way it is introduced to other wild Deer herds in other States, is the import of an infected animal placed in these High Fenced areas. This infected Deer or Elk may not show signs of the disease in it's early stage.
Where in my post is the word "ASSUMED" ? I put the assumed in there. No case has ever been 100% confirmed to have spread from a farm not wild deer. It is assumed that's what happened. Please don't "Assume" OR place "words" in my posts. From reading your posts in this thread, I've come to the conclusion you don't know much about the subject of "High Fenced Hunting" and it's consequences of introducing diseases to indigenous species of wildlife. I've read many articles concerning diseases like CWD, and its relationship, to its introduction and affects to indigenous species, that were once free of the Disease CWD until outside species were introduced for this "High Fenced Hunting" nonsense.
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Post by drs on Feb 3, 2015 8:12:57 GMT -5
It is also "ASSUMED" that it came from wild deer!! They find a lot/most of CWD in fenced Deer vs wild Deer!!! Yep. But that is everyone's argument why they should be banned. It gets thrown around that's how it's spreading. That farmer takes that risk. Same as I believe every farmer should take the risk on his livestock. If you raise cattle and they get sick that is your problem not mine or taxpayers. Show me where it spread outside that fence. All Cattle (Not wild Deer) Farmers & Ranchers have their Livestock vaccinated these days.
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Post by greghopper on Feb 3, 2015 8:13:07 GMT -5
It is also "ASSUMED" that it came from wild deer!! They find a lot/most of CWD in fenced Deer vs wild Deer!!! Yep. But that is everyone's argument why they should be banned. It gets thrown around that's how it's spreading. That farmer takes that risk. Same as I believe every farmer should take the risk on his livestock. If you raise cattle and they get sick that is your problem not mine or taxpayers. Show me where it spread outside that fence. If the fiinacal burden is always placed on the game holder then I could be more for High fence operations
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Post by span870 on Feb 3, 2015 8:27:58 GMT -5
I put the assumed in there. No case has ever been 100% confirmed to have spread from a farm not wild deer. It is assumed that's what happened. Please don't "Assume" OR place "words" in my posts. From reading your posts in this thread, I've come to the conclusion you don't know much about the subject of "High Fenced Hunting" and it's consequences of introducing diseases to indigenous species of wildlife. I've read many articles concerning diseases like CWD, and its relationship, to its introduction and affects to indigenous species, that were once free of the Disease CWD until outside species were introduced for this "High Fenced Hunting" nonsense. And I'm sure I've read the same or more articles that you have and I've yet to come across one, just one, that gives conclusive evidence. I don't know maybe you can find me one. I obviously know enough to know that this disease is naturally occurring in nature. Know enough that many believe it somehow derived from sheep scrapie, know enough that not you or one, just one, biologist can 100% link it to wild deer by domestic deer, know enough that I can view these animals without a hunters heart and know they aren't wild, and know for me its not my thing but if someone else wants to shoot someone else's livestock, have at it. I reckon that's all I know. I know enough that I will NEVER look down on another outdoorsman and call them less because they don't agree with my stance on taking a certain animal in a certain way as long as they follow the letter of the law.
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