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Post by omegahunter on Apr 10, 2015 9:27:14 GMT -5
John, I understand what you are saying but it still doesn't answer the question of why some Christians pick and choose. All Joel said here was that god excepts all Christians into heaven regardless of sin as long as they have Christ in their hearts and repent in their sins. Why is homosexuality a greater sin than any other? He does don't view mets misgivings, my misgivings or your misgiving any different. He teaches us to love all, he died for our sins, one and all. Those who condemn gays are in fact commuting a sin by condemning them. Joel simply stated that some that was preached in that time was outdated. Do you not agree? There is no way society today would function under those laws. Example, bearing false witness. Do you believe that if I testify that you committed murder and was found out to be a lie I should serve life in prison for that lie? Reread the article. Osteen answered "yes" if he thought that a person leading an openly gay lifestyle would go to heaven. Leading an openly gay lifestyle is not an act of repentance. It is a very fine line condemning homosexuality and not condemning the homosexual. The homosexual is loved by God the same as the rest of us, but it is the acceptance of Christ's gift and turning from our sinful ways that determines the wide road or narrow gate we are headed towards.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2015 9:48:34 GMT -5
I can't help myself... This won't make one bit of difference...but I just can't help myself. As we are holding gays to the standard of turning from their sinful ways because it's an abomination (from Leviticus), let's see if we've all turned from our sinful ways on the OTHER 75 things listed as sins in Leviticus... Now, I don't know about you, but I do pretty darned good with a lot on this list, but other things I screw up DAILY! I love pork. I wear blended fabrics all the time. Do you have a cross-bred animal at home? Yet, it's the homos that we hold to the fire. Ok, now I'm done. Here is a link, not that you'll bother to look at it. leviticusbans.tumblr.com/post/23730370413/76-things-banned-in-leviticus
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2015 9:58:57 GMT -5
I guess every time we eat bacon, slip on that polyester blend cammo shirt, or eat a rabbit or squirrel and think we are living right, it's that liberal thinking slipping in and taking over...
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Post by trophyparadise on Apr 10, 2015 10:10:16 GMT -5
I guess every time we eat bacon, slip on that polyester blend cammo shirt, or eat a rabbit or squirrel and think we are living right, it's that liberal thinking slipping in and taking over... Yes that may seem a bit hypocritical. One thing "leviticus bashers" as I call them either forget or intentionally leave out of that argument is that many of the laws in the law covenant (the mosaic law of the isrealites) were changed or eliminated, and new ones were added when Jesus instituted the "new covenant." Take the pork thing for example. The dietary limitations of the mosaic law put there to keep the isrealites spiritually clean...The unclean animals were a symbol of uncleanness, or sin. When Jesus died, he washed clean all mankinds sins (again symbolically) so those dietary prohibitions were eliminated in the new law covenant. Christians had the death of Jesus as a reminder of their sin and didn't need another visual reminder. So the law reverted to the provision announced to Noah after the flood, that all animals are fit to eat. (Gen 9:3, Col 2:13-17) Trophy Paradise Habitat Consulting "Trophies are built from the ground up" www.facebook.com/trophyparadise
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2015 10:18:01 GMT -5
And what did Jesus say about homosexuality? Answer: not a word that is recorded.
But we'll go ahead and keep that part in while we throw the rest of it out because...well, it's icky.
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Post by freedomhunter on Apr 10, 2015 10:22:40 GMT -5
I can't help myself... This won't make one bit of difference...but I just can't help myself. As we are holding gays to the standard of turning from their sinful ways because it's an abomination (from Leviticus), let's see if we've all turned from our sinful ways on the OTHER 75 things listed as sins in Leviticus... Now, I don't know about you, but I do pretty darned good with a lot on this list, but other things I screw up DAILY! I love pork. I wear blended fabrics all the time. Do you have a cross-bred animal at home? Yet, it's the homos that we hold to the fire. Ok, now I'm done. Here is a link, not that you'll bother to look at it. leviticusbans.tumblr.com/post/23730370413/76-things-banned-in-leviticus you are quoting the old law, Metamora. Have you read the New Testament?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2015 10:28:12 GMT -5
Oh my gosh!!!!
Yes!
The only mention of homosexuality in the New Testament comes from Paul who also said women should basically keep their mouths shut in church and should not be allowed to teach.
He also strongly suggested that it was better for men not to marry at all.
So, where does that leave us?
See how going down this road does nothing but open up more troublesome quandaries?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2015 10:33:02 GMT -5
A Christian is supposed to follow Christ. He was asked what the MOST IMPORTANT commandment was and he did not even reference the "rule book". He basically answered, Love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as you love yourself.
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Post by omegahunter on Apr 10, 2015 10:35:14 GMT -5
Thanks to Christ's sacrificial fulfillment of the law, we Believers are no longer under the Law of Moses, but live under the Law of Grace. Romans 6:12-15New International Version (NIV)
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.
"These two commandments remain": love God and love your neighbor. Those are the two laws I have to obey.
If you have not accepted the Gift from God, then the Bible says that you are still subject to the Law of Moses.
1 Timothy 1:9-11New International Version (NIV)
9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.
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Post by trophyparadise on Apr 10, 2015 10:37:25 GMT -5
Oh my gosh!!!! Yes! The only mention of homosexuality in the New Testament comes from Paul who also said women should basically keep their mouths shut in church and should not be allowed to teach. He also strongly suggested that it was better for men not to marry at all. So, where does that leave us? See how going down this road does nothing but open up more troublesome quandaries? If you study the context of Paul's writings you may come to a different understanding. Certain laws didn't need to be changed. Being a homosexual has always been contrary to nature and therefore wrong. Just like adultery...or greed, or murder. There was no need to change that part of the law. The parts that were largely ceremonial or symbolic were most of the ones eliminated or changed. Trophy Paradise Habitat Consulting "Trophies are built from the ground up" www.facebook.com/trophyparadise
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Post by trophyparadise on Apr 10, 2015 10:39:36 GMT -5
A Christian is supposed to follow Christ. He was asked what the MOST IMPORTANT commandment was and he did not even reference the "rule book". He basically answered, Love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as you love yourself. Those 2 commandments were part of the original law "rule book" Trophy Paradise Habitat Consulting "Trophies are built from the ground up" www.facebook.com/trophyparadise
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2015 10:41:09 GMT -5
Yep. Timothy was written by Paul. I guess all those wonderful little ladies who teach Sunday school are sinning then....
My wife too, since she's lead Bible studies.
I just don't get why people get hung up on this issue. It is an argument that does nothing but drive people away.
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Post by freedomhunter on Apr 10, 2015 10:41:37 GMT -5
A Christian is supposed to follow Christ. He was asked what the MOST IMPORTANT commandment was and he did not even reference the "rule book". He basically answered, Love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as you love yourself. So if I like to murder people, but I know it is a sin and continue to murder people as a way of life (because I can't help myself was born this way, I have a chance at salvation?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2015 10:46:09 GMT -5
Murder is in the 10 commandments. A better analogy would be, if I keep posting hateful things on Facebook about certain people (politicians, for instance) even though I know it's a sin, would I still go to heaven?
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Post by greghopper on Apr 10, 2015 10:47:46 GMT -5
A Christian is supposed to follow Christ. He was asked what the MOST IMPORTANT commandment was and he did not even reference the "rule book". He basically answered, Love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as you love yourself. So if I like to murder people, but I know it is a sin and continue to murder people as a way of life (because I can't help myself was born this way, I have a chance at salvation? Man your hitting them out of the park today... Another great post..
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Post by Jamie Brooks 1John5:13 on Apr 10, 2015 10:58:25 GMT -5
This is creeping into our society from the liberals. As conservatives, we need to stand up for what Christianity is and means. Yes, we all sin and fall short of the glory, but we don't all accept a lifestyle of constant sin that defines who we are. This is homosexuality, basicly you cannot steal the horse and repent and keep the horse, forgiveness doesn't work that way. Homosexuals are condemned to Hell as long as they accept that lifestyle of sin. Furthermore, I would say if you accept them as friends you are associating with sinners. It is not a bad habit that you can improve on and ask for help with and forgiveness. Given that, I am not a hater and as a Christian try to love everyone. I will not discriminate against them and will treat them as God's children. But, I won't sugar coat the fact that they are condemned and I won't willingly keep their company. EXACTLY.... Well said... My deer brothers, Freedomhunter has made an excellent point in that the horse thief cannot keep the horse. I hadn't heard it put that way. Remember what Jesus said, "What is impossible with man is possible with God." We cannot just work sin out of our life, but the Spirit in us will change the way we look at our sin, and HE will work it out of us. Met is right in that we sin; however, we cannot love the sin or we serve ourselves, and self is the GOD of this contemporary and later day. Show me a man who thinks that he doesn't sin, and I'll show you a man who doesn't look in the mirror. Freedomhunter has made another good point in that accepting sin can be very DANGEROUS. Let me explain: The bible refers to it as searing our conscience with a hot iron. If we accept that all of us continue to sin in some way, we can think that it is okay, and ignore the conviction of the Spirit. A good point is premarital sex ...well everyone does it, so it becomes okay. Now, homosexuality is commonly open, but this does not make it okay. This is why some speak so loudly. It's their purpose; it's not okay, and they do not want our consciences to be seared. They do not want it to become acceptable. I'd like you fellas to think about something and it relates to our Spiritual Gifts. We are the body of Christ and we all play a role as a different part of the body. If I am an ear, and you fellas are the feet. There is no way that I can truly understand the burdensome load that you fellas have to carry. There's no way that I can truly understand the desire to step on everything. However, we must play our part and appreciate our brothers for their gifts. There is a place for your ministry. I will NOT speak harshly to you for being bold and in one's face. However, I will make a point that when Jesus spoke harshly and was angered, it was to the false teachers of the day, like Joel today. Obviously when I was young, bold and offensively in one's face, God used it as he said that he would. He said that his word would never turn up void. I was 16 years old the first time the Lord used me to win someone to him. With all the testosterone of a teenager, of course I was bold and confrontational, but God had a place for it for His Glory. For me having an evangelist gift, how can I win a gay person to the Lord if I do not talk with them. "How can they hear if we do not speak?" I go to the lost or the Lord will send them to me. I don't condone the behavior in any way, but I do show them God's love. The light of the Lord shines from within me, and it draws them to me like a bug to a light at night. It is the Lord and the Lord alone. It is his love that I share and express. I am a wretched sinner covered with the blood of Christ. Brothers, we hate sin, ESPECIALLY our own as it hinders our relationship with the Lord. We live in the flesh, but we know that we are not of this world. I exhort you brothers. Stomp as you were made to do. Do not let the world accept sin as in the searing of the conscience, but I fear that we are too late. It is extremely difficult to do this and show love at the same time, as the world will jump all over us for speaking out period. In all you do, do it in the Love of the Lord.
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Post by freedomhunter on Apr 10, 2015 10:59:30 GMT -5
Murder is in the 10 commandments. A better analogy would be, if I keep posting hateful things on Facebook about certain people (politicians, for instance) even though I know it's a sin, would I still go to heaven? We can agree to disagree, I just wanted a conservative side on here because liberals can be so outspoken. I actually disagree with my girlfriend and my church on this so you are not special. There are a couple lesbians in the church I attend and women participate in service, I was raised in a super conservative church that would not allow this but got away from it thankfully. I do believe to leave people on their own accord and I am not the judge but do have an opinion.
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Post by Jamie Brooks 1John5:13 on Apr 10, 2015 11:05:55 GMT -5
Murder is in the 10 commandments. A better analogy would be, if I keep posting hateful things on Facebook about certain people (politicians, for instance) even though I know it's a sin, would I still go to heaven? Met, I get what you are saying brother, but please think about this. The danger really is that it all becomes acceptable. We must speak out so that it doesn't become acceptable or the world will crumble. When any sin becomes acceptable, we sear our conscience of the conviction of the Lord. You know how to boil a live frog; this is exactly how the Evil one will boil mankind. We must speak out, but we must do it in love.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2015 11:18:34 GMT -5
I will not speak out on that sin, because if I do, a person could make me into a hypocrite in 2 seconds by pointing out my sins. I will not speak out against any particular sin. What I will do is try to reflect the love of Christ so that people actually want to know me instead of being repulsed by me. What I will try to do is pray for people and things that I don't fully understand.
As for Mr. Osteen...I don't know if he is a "false teacher" or not. I am not familiar with all his teachings. On this particular topic, he was asked if he thinks it's possible for a homosexual to receive salvation. He said he thought it might be, but he doesn't know for sure. Neither do I. Neither do you.
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Post by greghopper on Apr 10, 2015 11:18:43 GMT -5
Murder is in the 10 commandments. A better analogy would be, if I keep posting hateful things on Facebook about certain people (politicians, for instance) even though I know it's a sin, would I still go to heaven? We can agree to disagree, I just wanted a conservative side on here because liberals can be so outspoken. I actually disagree with my girlfriend and my church on this so you are not special. There are a couple lesbians in the church I attend and women participate in service, I was raised in a super conservative church that would not allow this but got away from it thankfully. I do believe to leave people on their own accord and I am not the judge but do have an opinion. Here is some more conservative approach from our very own state/folks www.advanceamerica.com/index.php
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