|
Post by treetop on Mar 25, 2022 14:15:20 GMT -5
As "pay to play" has become more commonplace, I would imagine it's more likely the cost factor that keeps people from going that route and less that hunters are unwilling to pay for access. Sometimes, "paying to play" doesn't get you what you hope for as keeping people off the lease can be a giant pain in the rear end (been there done that). As far as public land goes, I guess that would depend upon how far one is willing to drive and how crowded with hunters that any particular piece of public land is, as factors in the decision to go the public land route or not. As you said, it's not an easy issue to fix. Yep… it’s a matter of how bad you want to hunt or how easy you just give up! Everyone makes their own personal choices! Maybe the Democrats can come up with a way to give everyone a FREE place to hunt undisturbed! I just might vote for that Democrats
|
|
|
Post by stevein on Mar 25, 2022 14:17:31 GMT -5
From what I have seen of questions asked on forums and ASK the C.O. maybe a reading competency level should be required. A shooting test would be a logistical nightmare. Would I have to qualify with the weapons used in each season or just the weapons I choose to hunt with? Would there be endorsements on my license? How about moving targets? It is a good idea in many ways but in the end I do not think it would work. If it isn't a logistical nightmare in those countries, why should it be one here? Yes, they have to qualify with every weapon they want to use. It all boils down to limiting the weekend warriors that don't respect the animal enough to get familiar with their weapon of choice and to practice with it enough to be proficient to ensure a clean kill 99.5% of the time with it vs. the people that think otherwise. I think most European countries have a lot less people hunting than the USA does. To just own a gun over there you already have to jump through several hoops. Is it all offhand or do you get to qualify off a bench? I would see what kind of testing they are doing in Europe. Is there a link? I am not opposed to the idea in general but I am opposed to terms like respect when applied to animals or ethics. Vauge terms that may not be concisely defined. There are 19 DNR shooting ranges in Indiana. The Baffeled ones like the one I am familar with at Roush Lake could handle maybe 60 sshooters at a time. But ones like Pidgeon River 12-20. That alone would be a logistical nightmare to get everyone qualified or the chance to qualify scheduled.
|
|
|
Post by greghopper on Mar 25, 2022 14:21:47 GMT -5
In my county there is typically only one time per year to get hands on hunter ed training, it's not well advertised, and it takes a full Saturday and Sunday for the kid and usually an parent or relative accompanying them. Big time commitment and someone has to drive them there and typically attend with them. Swimming is probably more dangerous, but we don't require swimming ed to jump in the pool. One weekend of the year for a lifetime of hunting for the kid - I think that's a worthy trade-off. I bet that in 100% of the time it's the parent that doesn't have the time vs. the kid. Take swimming in your example. You don't take a kid that has never been swimming and toss them into the deep end of the pool, or have them jump off of the boat out in the middle of the lake do you? I bet not and that they spend hours and days learning to swim. Swimming lessons teach you to actually swim… Taking HE is just the first step in learning to hunt! You’re lucky if you get handle a firearm at a class you differently don’t have to shoot a gun to pass a class in Indiana! It’s a feel Good class IMO! Online class is another story in its own IMO! Weak
|
|
|
Post by steiny on Mar 25, 2022 14:45:56 GMT -5
One weekend of the year for a lifetime of hunting for the kid - I think that's a worthy trade-off. I bet that in 100% of the time it's the parent that doesn't have the time vs. the kid. Take swimming in your example. You don't take a kid that has never been swimming and toss them into the deep end of the pool, or have them jump off of the boat out in the middle of the lake do you? I bet not and that they spend hours and days learning to swim. I'm sure you are correct that it is usually the parent that can't find the time. So a kid with an interest in hunting is held back from hunting because they happen to live with a parent that is uninterested. This is a clear road block. You are also correct that you don't toss a kid that doesn't know how to swim in the deep end without some competency training. Same with hunting. No respectable parent or adult would send a kid or beginner out the door with a loaded weapon to go hunting without some assistance or mentorship. Requiring a formal scheduled training class throws up a road block when there are plenty of responsible hunters that could simply guide a kid or entry level person into hunting quite safely. A whole lot of folks on this forum were hunting safely way before the hunter ed program came along. Kind of silly that IN allows any legal gun owner to walk around just about anywhere with a loaded handgun and no permit or competency requirements, yet if they want to go squirrel hunting they must go through a course and get a permit.
|
|
|
Post by firstwd on Mar 25, 2022 17:16:11 GMT -5
I have always thought Hunter Ed was incorrectly named. We don't teach hunting we teach safety. Should be Hunter Safety. I am in a position to read the report of all the outdoor incidents that the DNR investigate, in 22 years of teaching this class I know of only 1 of my students involved in an incident we cover in class. What seems to be lost on a lot of people in a group such as this, is not every kids grows up in a situation like we did or our kids/grandkids are. State laws cover the entire state. Not all hunting or gun handling kids come from rural areas of the state.
|
|
|
Post by esshup on Mar 25, 2022 22:30:05 GMT -5
One weekend of the year for a lifetime of hunting for the kid - I think that's a worthy trade-off. I bet that in 100% of the time it's the parent that doesn't have the time vs. the kid. Take swimming in your example. You don't take a kid that has never been swimming and toss them into the deep end of the pool, or have them jump off of the boat out in the middle of the lake do you? I bet not and that they spend hours and days learning to swim. I'm sure you are correct that it is usually the parent that can't find the time. So a kid with an interest in hunting is held back from hunting because they happen to live with a parent that is uninterested. This is a clear road block. You are also correct that you don't toss a kid that doesn't know how to swim in the deep end without some competency training. Same with hunting. No respectable parent or adult would send a kid or beginner out the door with a loaded weapon to go hunting without some assistance or mentorship. Requiring a formal scheduled training class throws up a road block when there are plenty of responsible hunters that could simply guide a kid or entry level person into hunting quite safely. A whole lot of folks on this forum were hunting safely way before the hunter ed program came along. Kind of silly that IN allows any legal gun owner to walk around just about anywhere with a loaded handgun and no permit or competency requirements, yet if they want to go squirrel hunting they must go through a course and get a permit. Maybe they need to come up with a people license? LOL
|
|
|
Post by treetop on Mar 26, 2022 6:11:50 GMT -5
I have always thought Hunter Ed was incorrectly named. We don't teach hunting we teach safety. Should be Hunter Safety. I am in a position to read the report of all the outdoor incidents that the DNR investigate, in 22 years of teaching this class I know of only 1 of my students involved in an incident we cover in class. What seems to be lost on a lot of people in a group such as this, is not every kids grows up in a situation like we did or our kids/grandkids are. State laws cover the entire state. Not all hunting or gun handling kids come from rural areas of the state. This is very true no one hunted in my home. To this day even with my extended family I’m one of the few that hunt even though most grew up on farms
|
|
|
Post by greghopper on Mar 26, 2022 8:17:29 GMT -5
I have always thought Hunter Ed was incorrectly named. We don't teach hunting we teach safety. Should be Hunter Safety. I am in a position to read the report of all the outdoor incidents that the DNR investigate, in 22 years of teaching this class I know of only 1 of my students involved in an incident we cover in class. What seems to be lost on a lot of people in a group such as this, is not every kids grows up in a situation like we did or our kids/grandkids are. State laws cover the entire state. Not all hunting or gun handling kids come from rural areas of the state. You have any accident data for pre years of HE mandate? That would be the telling part IMO …And how many actually become Hunter’s after taking the safety classes the last 22 years you speak of! I also believe the number of inner city youth taking the class and becoming a actual life time Hunter’s is low…. Rural youth is a different story. If we allow youth to be home schooled for a education then we should allow home schooling for a safety class (HE) make it a option not a mandate.IMO
|
|
|
Post by firstwd on Mar 26, 2022 9:17:53 GMT -5
I have always thought Hunter Ed was incorrectly named. We don't teach hunting we teach safety. Should be Hunter Safety. I am in a position to read the report of all the outdoor incidents that the DNR investigate, in 22 years of teaching this class I know of only 1 of my students involved in an incident we cover in class. What seems to be lost on a lot of people in a group such as this, is not every kids grows up in a situation like we did or our kids/grandkids are. State laws cover the entire state. Not all hunting or gun handling kids come from rural areas of the state. You have any accident data for pre years of HE mandate? That would be the telling part IMO …And how many actually become Hunter’s after taking the safety classes the last 22 years you speak of! I also believe the number of inner city youth taking the class and becoming a actual life time Hunter’s is low…. Rural youth is a different story. If we allow youth to be home schooled for a education then we should allow home schooling for a safety class (HE) make it a option not a mandate.IMO There is a home course. It's online, have to be 12, and the parents can sit right there and do it for them.
|
|
|
Post by greghopper on Mar 26, 2022 10:24:33 GMT -5
You have any accident data for pre years of HE mandate? That would be the telling part IMO …And how many actually become Hunter’s after taking the safety classes the last 22 years you speak of! I also believe the number of inner city youth taking the class and becoming a actual life time Hunter’s is low…. Rural youth is a different story. If we allow youth to be home schooled for a education then we should allow home schooling for a safety class (HE) make it a option not a mandate.IMO There is a home course. It's online, have to be 12, and the parents can sit right there and do it for them. Maybe the in person class should be 12 also then…. I am sure parent involvement happens at the in person class also! The online class you can fail….Never heard of anyone failing the in person class unless they didn’t show up! Maybe they have. The unlimited apprentice lic. Until 18 is really the best option on both sides of the discussion IMO.
|
|
|
Post by deadeer on Mar 26, 2022 11:02:10 GMT -5
I was 100% involved when my boy took his HE class last year. I made sure he paid attention, stayed focused, and understood every minute. I was also involved in the discussion with the CO on many points I felt needed further explanation. As stated earlier in this thread, a LOT of folks just dropped kids off, or one adult chaperoned a large group. My boy is almost 12yo, and I have ABSOLUTELY no worries with him handling a loaded firearm or one within his reach. Not saying he would be proficient in operating every action type, but 100% safe in handling, finger off trigger, pointing in safe direction, etc. Definately a product of home/parent involvement.
|
|
|
Post by jjas on Mar 26, 2022 12:02:53 GMT -5
Steiny
I was thinking the exact same thing...
|
|
|
Post by greghopper on Mar 26, 2022 12:57:45 GMT -5
I was 100% involved when my boy took his HE class last year. I made sure he paid attention, stayed focused, and understood every minute. I was also involved in the discussion with the CO on many points I felt needed further explanation. As stated earlier in this thread, a LOT of folks just dropped kids off, or one adult chaperoned a large group. My boy is almost 12yo, and I have ABSOLUTELY no worries with him handling a loaded firearm or one within his reach. Not saying he would be proficient in operating every action type, but 100% safe in handling, finger off trigger, pointing in safe direction, etc. Definately a product of home/parent involvement. Question if I may ask.... Do you think he could of made a passing grade without the class from being home taught or would it still took the class to seal the deal on a passing grade? Thanks!
|
|
|
Post by firstwd on Mar 26, 2022 13:12:28 GMT -5
There is a home course. It's online, have to be 12, and the parents can sit right there and do it for them. Maybe the in person class should be 12 also then…. I am sure parent involvement happens at the in person class also! The online class you can fail….Never heard of anyone failing the in person class unless they didn’t show up! Maybe they have. The unlimited apprentice lic. Until 18 is really the best option on both sides of the discussion IMO. We separate parents from kids during our testing so parents aren't tempted to "help" the kids with the answers. This not only let's instructors know how the kids digested the information, but also let's the instructors know how well they delivered it. People fail the in-person class all the time. It's not our goal but it happens.
|
|
|
Post by stevein on Mar 26, 2022 13:27:20 GMT -5
I was 100% involved when my boy took his HE class last year. I made sure he paid attention, stayed focused, and understood every minute. I was also involved in the discussion with the CO on many points I felt needed further explanation. As stated earlier in this thread, a LOT of folks just dropped kids off, or one adult chaperoned a large group. My boy is almost 12yo, and I have ABSOLUTELY no worries with him handling a loaded firearm or one within his reach. Not saying he would be proficient in operating every action type, but 100% safe in handling, finger off trigger, pointing in safe direction, etc. Definately a product of home/parent involvement. Question if I may ask…. .Do you think he could of made a passing grade without the class from being home taught or would it still took the class to seal the deal on a passing grade? Thanks! When my son got his first gun I took him to the first available HE class. He had just turned 12. He had already shot BB guns, muzzle loaders and .22s. I took him with me as had my Dad and older brothers did with me. I showed him the results of a .38 special +P round on a milk jug filled with water and a 22 on squirrels. He was around dead game from when he could walk. He paid close attention and only missed 1 question on the test with no help from me. At the same class were several younger kids that the CO and instructers took aside and read the questions to. These were kids probably 6 and 7 YO. Everyone passed that day. I believe each kid is different and parents should be the ones to decide when they are ready to hunt. But I do not believe a 6 or 7 year old should be given the full blown hunters Ed certificate until they reach 12. I took the class when my brother invited me to go with him so he could go on a hunt out west. It was interesting and while there was not a lot I already did not know it was a fun weekend with my brother with a little competition thrown in. I personally feel when it was made a rule to take HE after the first 2 years of it being in effect they should have moving the age back until all would eventually have to take it.
|
|
|
Post by firstwd on Mar 26, 2022 13:35:32 GMT -5
Question if I may ask…. .Do you think he could of made a passing grade without the class from being home taught or would it still took the class to seal the deal on a passing grade? Thanks! When my son got his first gun I took him to the first available HE class. He had just turned 12. He had already shot BB guns, muzzle loaders and .22s. I took him with me as had my Dad and older brothers did with me. I showed him the results of a .38 special +P round on a milk jug filled with water and a 22 on squirrels. He was around dead game from when he could walk. He paid close attention and only missed 1 question on the test with no help from me. At the same class were several younger kids that the CO and instructers took aside and read the questions to. These were kids probably 6 and 7 YO. Everyone passed that day. I believe each kid is different and parents should be the ones to decide when they are ready to hunt. But I do not believe a 6 or 7 year old should be given the full blown hunters Ed certificate until they reach 12. I took the class when my brother invited me to go with him so he could go on a hunt out west. It was interesting and while there was not a lot I already did not know it was a fun weekend with my brother with a little competition thrown in. I personally feel when it was made a rule to take HE after the first 2 years of it being in effect they should have moving the age back until all would eventually have to take it. That is actually happening with the date limit. It's just slow.
|
|
|
Post by jjas on Mar 26, 2022 13:43:44 GMT -5
firstwd
So how is that happening? Is the state going to change the date from December 31, 1986 and go back farther in time to require people born before that date to pass hunter's ed?
|
|
|
Post by Woody Williams on Mar 26, 2022 14:53:16 GMT -5
firstwd So how is that happening? Is the state going to change the date from December 31, 1986 and go back farther in time to require people born before that date to pass hunter's ed? I took it that he meant that someday everyone who was born before December 31st, 1986 will be dead and gone. So everyone will have to pass a HE course. No more "grandfathering" in.
|
|
|
Post by Woody Williams on Mar 26, 2022 14:55:43 GMT -5
There is a home course. It's online, have to be 12, and the parents can sit right there and do it for them. Maybe the in person class should be 12 also then…. I am sure parent involvement happens at the in person class also! The online class you can fail….Never heard of anyone failing the in person class unless they didn’t show up! Maybe they have. The unlimited apprentice lic. Until 18 is really the best option on both sides of the discussion IMO. What about the adult apprentices? My grandson didn't start hunting until he was 30 years old.
|
|
|
Post by greghopper on Mar 26, 2022 15:12:23 GMT -5
firstwd So how is that happening? Is the state going to change the date from December 31, 1986 and go back farther in time to require people born before that date to pass hunter's ed? I took it that he meant that someday everyone who was born before December 31st, 1986 will be dead and gone. So everyone will have to pass a HE course. No more "grandfathering" in. Yep…. Unless your lic exempt then HE is not needed!
|
|